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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:09 pm
‏I have this nerdy opinion that Goku is the strongest character ever. Who thinks there's one who can beat him (Super Saiyan 4)? No invincible or immortal characters. No one like Ganodorf who can only be affected via Master Sword or anyone who can kill in one shot like Light Yagami. OR anyone with similar unbeatable-ish powers or certain special powers. I'll decide if the character can count or not. If too many disagree on my call we can vote. This should be kinda fun.
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‏Post by PK FIRE! » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:20 pm
‏Gohan, his beating Cell was ment to be the end of DBZ.

‏Ness from Mother2/Eathbound is also in the running.

‏- You stupid dog!
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‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:35 pm
‏I don't wanna argue but since Goku is also unbeatable-ish, all the choices people make will be based on thier personal preferences?

‏Anyway......

‏1. Batman

‏2. Iron Man (WELL, I LIKE TO THINK SO!)

‏3. Punch to the Face [/joke]
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‏Post by Typhlame » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:28 pm
‏OVER 9000 people.
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‏Post by X-3 » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:43 pm
‏Ganon could beat Goku.

‏Ganon can be beaten without the Master Sword. Hazzah! I take your puny rules, and I bend them to my liking.
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‏Post by Galefore » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:59 pm
‏Ganondorf would stomp all over anybody from DBZ, because although he himself is known for yelling before he fires his lazer, he is still ten times more badass.

‏But if your nerd opinion calls for a stronger character than Goku, I'll go with Himura the Batosai. Speed, power, and aggressiveness in his Batosai form lead him to greatness. In terms of twice as badass with no remorse, it's definitely Hajime Saito.

‏All aside, the entire Kouga clan from Basilisk is strong enough to whoop Goku, as is Kefka. I'll also slip in that there's a character in Spiderman called Morlun who would likely whip Goku, since Morlun was pretty unstoppable.
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‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:11 am
‏How could I forget the king of all evil clowns?!

‏- You stupid dog!
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‏Post by Greenmarioman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:47 am
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‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:55 am
‏Superman is just made of lame and fail. Batman is where it's at.

‏...That wasn't entirely related to the topic at hand, though.
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#10

‏Post by Deepfake » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:06 am
‏Onslaught or X-man, take your pick.

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#11

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:48 am
‏Stop bending my rules to your whim :p

‏But I'm talking GT Goku so he beats any Gohan. Bat Man is cool but is just a normal dude with gadgets, so he fails. Super Man? In the movie he could barely lift that mountain/island whereas when Goku fought Pikon in the otherworld tournament, the power from their fight alone destroyed nearby planet-things. Supes goes down easy. I dunno Xman, Onslaught or anyone Hiroyuki mentioned so to be fair, state their strongest feat for me. Iron Man? Iron iMan has the Bat Man problem.

‏Ness is not so quick and relies on items. Ganon/dorf, if killable without a Master Sword or other special item, would die easy.
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#12

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:02 am
‏I disagree with the Superman thing. He can sneeze and destroy a universe.

‏Plus, what Superman are we talking about?

‏Also, Doomsday.
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#13

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:49 am
‏Ha, I doubt it's been shown hisneeze has such power cause, God forbid he has a wicked bowel movement...Which Super Man? The Super one I guess. Doomsday? Ha, he's a ***** too. Supes f*cked him up one time so their powers don't match up to DBZ powers. Goku can teleport moving at the speed of light making him faster and Vegeta with like a 18,000 power level easily destroyed planets (18,000 is nothing by GT standards) so beating SSj4 Goku is gonna be hard, these Marvel guys probably cant touch Chiaotzu!
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#14

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:54 am
‏Super ****ed him up? No, no, no.

‏First, Doomsday emerged and beat up all of the Justice League with one arm tied behind his back in a matter of minutes. Then, he fought Superman, and both were killed after a long struggle.

‏Also, Superman's sneeze is WICKED. Apparently.

‏And by "which Superman", I literally mean WHICH SUPERMAN. There's movie Superman, animated Superman, comics Superman...hell, comics Superman has it's own little subcategories of sorts.
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#15

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:59 am
[

‏If you consider the Justice League a bunch of dorks like Booster Gold, and Fire and Ice.

‏Goku versus Superman.... FAN-FIC TIME
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#16

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:15 am
‏1. My point, X-3, is that Supes was not helpless vs Doomsday, which means, since Supes is easily beaten via Goku, Doomsday would take little more effort. 2. Which Supes? For his sake, the strongest one! Maybe I better even this topic out a bit & bust Goku down to Kaioken or even normal form so someone has a chance :p
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#17

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:24 am
‏Since when is Superman easily beaten by Goku?

‏Heh, this is bringing back memories of a V.S. thread back on NSider. Good times.

‏Also, Sargeras is pretty damn strong.
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#18

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:50 am
‏Nsider? On Nintendo's site? I was a snotty little brat (I was like that till I was 13) when I joined up there but can't remember if I ever really posted. Anyway, when Goku uses a Solar Flash and blinds him, uses Instant Transmission in his face and uses a Kamehameha disintigrating the poor bastard. I watched a lot of ol' Supes' cartoon and watched the movies and never seen someone do what Goku can. Supes fought talking monkeys and Lex Luthor, some regular jerk. Very scary vs Jenemba or Kid Buu, I'm sure...

‏BTW, who's Sargeras?
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#19

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:59 am
‏Would that even be enough to kill Super?

‏Sargeras - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
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#20

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:13 pm
‏How do we know it's enough? Easy...

‏Well, let's compare their strength. What is the MOST damage Super Man ever inflicted via laser eyes, punches and ice breath? Also, what power was strong enough to badly hurt/kill Supes? Hypothetical Example: Let's say Supes can't break a cement wall or a grenade nearly killed him. Since Goku can break cement easily & Kamehameha can destroy planets, it would say Goku is greater. Course Supes is stronger than THAT but give evidence of his feats and what killed him to compare the 2.
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‏ Board index Other Entertainment Movies, Television, and Animation

‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#21

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:21 pm
‏I'm not saying that Goku is stronger than Superman, 'cause I agree with you. Goku is stronger. Though, Superman has died once, and Goku has died countless times.
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#22

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:28 pm
‏Circumstances, 1-up. What if a cute little bunny killed Supes 1 time and a badass killed Goku a few times? That's the difference.
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#23

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:38 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Super Man? In the movie he could barely lift that mountain/island whereas when Goku fought Pikon in the otherworld tournament, the power from their fight alone destroyed nearby planet-things. Supes goes down easy.

‏The island was made of Kryptonite, his only weakness.

‏Again, his ONLY WEAKNESS. The only chance in hell Goku has of beating Superman "easily" is if he had some Kryptonite.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#24

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:42 pm
‏You're taking Batman out becaue he's a human?!?!

‏Ok, I'm going back to my original standing that with the way the rules are set up, you're trying to make Goku invincible.

‏So, a Punch to the Face wins.
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#25

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:42 pm
‏Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta does Big-Bang Kamehameha on Superman. BOOM
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#26

‏Post by Blake » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:23 pm
‏Unicron can defeat Goku. Sure Goku can blow up planets, but Unicron can f*cking eat them like a damn snack. If Goku tried blowing something like Unicron while inside it, he'd probably get caught up in his own ki attack, destroying himself in the process. But it shouldn't ever come to that because once Unicron destroys the planet Goku is on, so goes the atmosphere and oxygen that I assume he requires to breathe.
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#27

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:27 pm

‏ 1-up salesman wrote:
‏ Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta does Big-Bang Kamehameha on Superman. BOOM

‏Gogeta is Goku + Vegeta. Not Goku himself.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#28

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:29 pm
‏Goku's puny Ki would not stand up to Ganondorf, even without a weakness for the master sword. If it were not for making the game possible to beat, Ganondorf would have had enough potential power to be practically invincible.
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#29

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:31 pm

‏ Masaharu Morimoto wrote:
‏ Gogeta is Goku + Vegeta. Not Goku himself.

‏I know I'm just sayin'
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#30

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:21 pm
‏I still say that Ness is in the running. also for whatever reason magic goofs ups superman as well.

‏Kefka could win, He absorbed the power of THREE goddess of magic. Enabling him to reshape the face of a planet and squash towns like flies via the light of judgment beam. let's also not forget his fallen one attack that brings oponets down to ONE heath. so FallenOne + any other attack = Kefka wins!

‏- You stupid dog!
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#31

‏Post by Blake » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:25 pm

‏ PSYCHOKID909 wrote:
‏ let's also not forget his fallen one attack that brings oponets down to ONE heath.
‏ - You stupid dog!

‏Lmao. I never finished an FF game but I remember there was someone that spammed that in Chrono Trigger.
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#32

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:29 pm
‏Well, Tazy, I just have the fight as "2 guys meet at some place they can survive at and try to kill each other" so it's fair. Super Man has been hurt without kryptonite before right? I am sure of it, tell me what it was. I doubt it destroyed the planet in the process. Unicron? What's he made of? How big is he? From what I can see he's just a big robot so as long as Unicron can fit in the universe and appear before Goku and is NOT made of invincible metal, Goku should be able to destroy him.
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#33

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:32 pm
‏^That logic = Phail. Do not forget that Goku himself is the Japanese equivalent of pointlessly invincible, like Superman; as such, I believe that if he were made into a balanced character, he would be defeatable. In his current state, however, I am certain that Kefka would easily win. Without trying.
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#34

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:33 pm
‏I love Zelda but I see no proof Ganon/dorf has such great power. Sorry but even that giant dragon from Wind Waker hurt ol Ganondorf.
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#35

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:38 pm
‏^That giant dragon was A GIANT ****ING DRAGON.

‏Also, you completely ignored our arguments for Kefka. And I'll stick by Ganondorf, as would my good friend Wyborn; in fact, I'm going to dig up and copy/paste an argument made by Wyborn for Ganondorf's supremacy.

‏Replace the bits about Diablo with Goku:

‏[QUOTE=Wyborn]Firstly, Diablo is not invincible, and he is not immortal. He is perfectly capable of getting his ass kicked - by a normal guy, no less. That's right, the guy who beats Diablo's ass (in either game) is no more special than Link - in reality he's a lot less special for reasons that will be gotten into later on in this post. Diablo's a bad dude, sure, and possessed the first guy who beat his ass, but he's not the ultimate demon sultan that you all think he is. Of course, even if he were, it might not matter.

‏I'll be as succinct as posisble, here. First, Ganondorf could beat Diablo's ass without any of the Triforce pieces, and with them it's not a contest. Why do I say this?

‏Consider the goddesses of Hyrule - who are creation goddesses, they made the world and all life in it and set down the laws of reality, and are way, WAY badder than Diablo ever thought about being. The three of them together have more or less complete control over reality. Diablo is probably more comparable to one of the guardian gods of Hyrule, the lesser gods who stand for elements - like Jabu Jabu or Valoo from Wind Waker. They're gods, they're unholy powerful in their own right, and to the average mortal they might as well be invincible, but they are not omnipotent. So yeah, we've established that Triforce goddesses > Diablo by a huge margin.

‏The Triforce itself is just as bad - when the goddesses left the Sacred Realm they left the Triforce in their wake - it was the essence of the gods, literally the stuff that made them what they were. Leaving it did not lessen them, but it created a new power just as severe. The Triforce has the same power to change reality that the goddesses do, up to and including changing the way that people's bodies are shaped. It makes the world itself reflect the heart and mind of whoever holds it - so it's more than just a wish-granter, it's a sort of god-maker, and anyone holding it will essentially be all-powerful. It is needless to say that if we give Ganondorf the whole Triforce (as he had it in LttP), Diablo is boned.

‏But that doesn't make sense, you say. We defeated Ganon in Link to the Past when he had the whole Triforce, you say. He should have been all-powerful! And you are quite right. The reason for this is simple: the Master Sword.

‏Yes, it's true tat the Master Sword is the sword of Evil's Bane, but it seems to have the added effect of being useful against wielders of the Triforce, negating its power to some effect or another and allowing the user to fight against them. This is a part of the reason that it's so important to have the Master Sword when fighting Ganon: not only will it hurt him, but unless you have it then fighting him becomes an exercise in your suicidal tendencies, you crazy duck.

‏Of course, having the Master Sword is rarely enough in and of itself - when he has the whole Triforce, you need some extra boost to hurt him after the master Sword has stripped away his defenses, such as Silver Arrows. As LttP is the only game wherein Ganondorf possesses the entire Triforce, it is the only game where such measures have been necessary: typically the Master Sword is enough by itself, with other weapons (like the Light Arrows) only serving the purpose of stunning him.

‏So, yes, Ganondorf with the whole Triforce would stomp Diablo to death and there's no question - he could probably will his ass kicked.. But maybe that's not fair either - after all, why should Gannon be the one with the One Item of Ultimate Power? So we'll say Ganondorf doesn't get the whole Triforce.

‏So let's say the Triforce of Power. As the essence of Din, apparently the goddess of power, this artifact in theory gives unlimited power to the person in question - just not the ability to change the rules of the universe or create life (though Ganon may have done these using his own skills fueled by the ToP). With it, Ganon can do basically anything - so long as Diablo doesn't have one of the other Triforce pieces to mitigate its power (and they do serve as a sort of limited protection against the ToP) then Ganondorf can use it to crush him into paste with nothing else.

‏I don't think it would be fair to take the Triforce of Power from him, though - he's only been in one game where he doesn't get that. However, for the sake of argument, we will examine how powerful Ganondorf is in the one game where he doesn't hold the Triforce: Wind Waker.

‏In Wind Waker, Ganondorf does numerous things relating to how bad-ass he is: one of the first is taking a full head-on attack from Valoo, a fire god, which completely destroys the tower he was in but does not seem to do any lasting damage to Ganondorf himself. Immediately after delivering the attack, which served as more of a diversion, Valoo ran like Hell. This means, right up, that Ganondorf could most likely take an assault from Diablo and come out of it more or less okay. ...wait, now that i think of it he has the Triforce of Power at this time. So moving on.

‏The real stuff is at the end of the game, so I will warn once more:

‏SPOILERS BELOW

‏At the end of the game, it is revealed that, by using his magic, Ganondorf has kept the waters of the entire ocean from crashing down and destroying Hyrule. Let your mind try to grasp the full extent of that - Ganondorf is using his magic to hold back the ocean, hundreds of fathoms down, over the entire kingdom. The amount of power required to do this beggars the imagination. He started the spell with the Triforce of Power, but this is irrelevant as the ocean does not come crashing down even after he casts the ToP from his body, meaning he's holding it up himself.

‏I need to make mention of Light Arrows in Wind Waker, as they're different from those in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask: they're so brutally powerful that there's no comparison. If they hit an enemy, the enemy will die. Moblin? Dead. Imp? Dead. Hell, if you shoot a Darknut in an exposed spot, it's dead too. And it's not just dead - it erupts into a brilliant orb of light that slowly contracts into nothing and dissipates. These things are bad.

‏When Ganondorf gets shot with one, it just really pisses him off - and yes, this is without the Triforce of power. When Zelda shoots him with a Light Arrow something like five times she gets knocked the hell out.

‏Back to what Ganondorf works against - in the final battle, Ganondorf has no Triforce piece and no magic to call upon; he uses his swords, presumably because all of his magic is being focused towards holding back the ocean. Now, this may seem like I'm repeating myself, but the fact of the matter is this: Ganondorf is holding back the ocean while he's being attacked with the Master Sword, shot with Light Arrows, and in general getting his ass kicked. The ocean only begins to leak through because someone makes a wish on the Triforce to flood Hyrule forever, and then it only comes through in a relative trickle, flooding the place very slowly - until he dies, at which point it all comes crashing down at once.

‏I need to say that again: Ganondorf is holding back the weight of the ocean, fighting the Master Sword (remember, it's more or less made specifically to kill him), being shot with Light Arrows that might as well be Silver Arrows, and he only gives in inches when the Triforce itself is leveled against him. This does not conflict with the Triforce's omnipotence, but the fact that Ganondorf didn't collapse and explode shows that he has a level of power so great it boggles the mind.

‏So Ganondorf, even without the Triforce of Power, could in all likelihood kick Diablo's ass into his teeth.

‏With the Triforce of Power it's just going to be more violent.

‏With the whole Triforce it's like the punchline to a knock-knock joke - not funny.

‏So that's it! Anyone care to argue?[/QUOTE]
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#36

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:44 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I love Zelda but I see no proof Ganon/dorf has such great power. Sorry but even that giant dragon from Wind Waker hurt ol Ganondorf.

‏Uh...no it didn't. Ganondorf came out of that without a scratch or burn.
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#37

‏Post by Blake » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:47 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Unicron? What's he made of? How big is he? From what I can see he's just a big robot so as long as Unicron can fit in the universe and appear before Goku and is NOT made of invincible metal, Goku should be able to destroy him.

‏To be fair, let's say Goku's kamehamaha wave has a range of 30 miles(about the visibility on planet earth I think). Now the speed of kamehameha's? They are quite slow. Let's say they can travel 150 miles per hour.

‏Seeing as Unicron is so freaking huge he can practically 'walk' from one planet to another. I think we can say Unicron can travel well over a thousand miles per hour just because of his sheer size and seeing as he moves with relative ease in the movie.

‏Now, once Unicron clings onto planet earth and starts to destroy it, what can Goku do? If Goku fires a kamehameha and destroys Unicron, Unicron is destroyed. However, firing a ki attack from thirty miles away is extremely dangerous if the blast radius is thousands of miles wide.

‏Overall, the match either ends in Goku and Unicron in a draw, or Unicron winning. Thus Unicron has a greater chance of winning because Goku basically has no chance of winning.

‏Edit: Oh yeah the purposes of the range and speeds of the characters is because Unicron has the advantage of being in space. Chances are he can detect the kamehamaha and avoid it before taking damage. He can just move to the other side of the planet Goku is on once he knows Goku's position and begin to devour it.
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#38

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:50 pm
‏Forgive me but I can't post alot in one go.

‏Not true. SSj4 Gogeta is much stronger than Goku so he is not unbeatable. If Vegeta were to fuse with Gohan or someone powerful, the fusion result would kill Goku. I just didn't base this topic on Gogeta cause I found the idea of fusion cheap. Infact, I forgot to state it is also against the rules. Who's Kefka? I hear he brings near death? Well, that's not good enough. Super Spirit Bomb anyone? Nah, unnessacarily powerful. Kamehameha is faster anyway. BTW, whaddya mean make him balanced? He's as is! :p
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#39

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:58 pm
‏Don't underestimate near death. Near death makes people weak and defenseless, leaving them wide open for a final blow. Or something.

‏Ganon has firebats, which can burn Goku's hair, leaving him powerless! Yeah, that was a mandatory "hair joke". Cliche but beautiful.
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#40

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:00 pm
‏^^This proves that you've never played FF6, and yet you somehow believed ff8 was better without backup to your opinion.

‏And did you even read Wyborn's argument? It blows yours out of the ****ing water.
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#41

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:03 pm
‏1. I knew Wy well and he would NOT agree so I won't read that (maybe later for kicks. Wys always got something interesting to say). He told me before I liked DBZ that Goku was nigh unbeatable & we had all kinds of debates so I know what I'm talkin' about there. Unicron? Your argument relies on Kamehameha being slow. Instant Transmission close enough, blast, teleport away. Done. BTW, Goku had a spacesuit so we'll have him use it to battle Unicron.
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#42

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:05 pm
‏^You fail to see that Wy DOES likely agree in this case, seeing as he seems to be a bigger 'Dorf supporter than all of us combined. READ THE ****ING ARGUMENT, and you'll change your mind. Trust me.

‏Note that you said "knew". He currently supports Ganondorf so heavily, in fact, that he has made a topic called "Ganondorf beats up Everyone" in the Art&Lit board. Even if he disagrees that Ganondorf could beat Goku, I still promise you that he could. Easily. Without trying.
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#43

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:16 pm
‏Nice hair joke :)

‏Weak and defenseless? Goku is always near death! He's a Saiyan warrior! I'll ignore ya even said that! :p And I DID play FF6 and got far. Wait, THAT Kefka?! Wasn't he just a joke? Did he actually become powerful? I should finish FF6...also, fine, I'll read that quote but Wy was a DBZ supporter more than Zelda. He posed me a question once: Who could kill Link? Well, long story short, he set rules like mine, stating I can't name Goku to kill him, that he would anihilate Link...who kills GANON/DORF!
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#44

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:22 pm
‏... You don't know who Kefka is? Okay ignoring that, Fallen One brings people so close to death that a bee sting would probly finish the job. Also Kefka has a huge varity of other nasty magic attacks including one (I don't recall it's name) that slames the attacker with every negitive status effect in the game. Strong as goku is i'd like to see him do much if he's blinded, poisoned, confused, berserked, muted, ect Oh he also has another attack that basicly turns you into an ice statue for the rest of the fight/revived by proper item.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
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#45

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:30 pm
‏^^You still neglect to see my point, because you're blinded by what you think is the absolute truth. I promise, promise, that Wy would likely support Ganondorf on this one.
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#46

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:37 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Well, Tazy, I just have the fight as "2 guys meet at some place they can survive at and try to kill each other" so it's fair. Super Man has been hurt without kryptonite before right? I am sure of it, tell me what it was.

‏It was other people from under a red sun.

‏I don't remember anything about Goku being born in a solar system with a red sun.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#47

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:51 pm
‏Now to read Wys post...

‏PK, ever watch DBZ? Frieza fought while chopped in half with his arm cut off AFTER a beatdown. Blinded? Vegito beat the crap outta Super Buu while he couldn't see. Poison? It would only kill him after Kefka dies from a single hit assuming he has no Senzu Beans. Confuse? All about luck then. Berserk? It increases attack! He'd be a fool! Mute? No affect. ANYWAY, its all assuming he's faster than Goku & even can attack! Close, but no cigar. Also, I am positive if he read this he'd take my side.

‏Red Sun? Who cares if its pink! Planet Vegeta has 10X earth's gravity! That's bragging rights!
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#48

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:59 pm
‏I admit the guit of Liking DBZ long ago, and I ABOSUTLY LOATHED Goku. I liked gohan from the start because unlike dear old dad his skull had something other then gravle in it, granted he was a wimp for a long time but still.

‏I still say that Kefka wins. The guy's basicly bottled crazy with the power of and I'm repeating this THREE goddess, of Magic. fallen one would really screw over Goku, he'd be too wak to move, mute prevents magic attacks so that could be carried over to Ki moves. whiler Beserk does make physical attacks stronger it also takes away inteligens meaning Goku could only punch and kick and wouldn't be smart enough to use a senzu bean.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#49

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:17 pm
‏Goku is actually highly intelligent. You mistake his innocence for ignorance. I don't care if Kefka has the power of a thousand goddesses, Goku is WAY stronger than the Supreme Kai (even more powerful than Kibito Kai) and Kami (Japanese for God)! Goku's punches? That's aaall he needs bud. This is ALL assuming Kefka can get BOTH moves on Goku (Kefka can't move at the speed of light, therefore forfeiting first strike) but if Kamehameha hits Kefka, he loses. Sorry, he lacks the ability...

‏BTW, magic does not translate to Ki. Ki is Goku's power within himself, it is him. Magic can be taught, all beings have Ki
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#50

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:32 pm
‏Heh this dabate is rather fun.

‏Thinking of marrige as a type of food is nOT innocence or naivite.

‏The aformentioned goddes out of alinement caused such mass destruction that the entire serface of the planet was rearanged! now take all that power and cram it inside of a guy whose idea of music is the screams of an ENTRE KINGDOM that he killed by posining there water supply. along with the citison of said kingdom were troops from his own army that had ben captured. He also intends to creat a monument to none existence. Think on the logic of that for a moment.

‏Also As kefka is in affect a god of magic he has acess to the spell Life three all he needs to do his cast that upon himself and he'll be auto raised from the dead. Though he never used said spell in the game that doesn't mean he couldn't lets also not forget that he could also induce the staus effect comdemed basicly a countdown to death spell.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#51

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:34 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Red Sun? Who cares if its pink! Planet Vegeta has 10X earth's gravity! That's bragging rights!

‏What does that have to do with the fact that only people who have been born under a red sun can defeat Superman without Kryptonite?
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#52

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:02 pm
‏First off, Gale and IRHP, this thread is for debating who could beat up Goku. It's not a "Wy agrees with ME!" thread. If Wy holds so much weight, invite him to this thread or something.

‏If Goku was blinded, he would be able to do basically nothing. Poisoned, he'd slowly die. Confused, he'd punch the floor, or beat on himself. Berserked, he would punch that floor harder. Muted...well, I don't think that would do much to him. All those ailments together would screw Goku over.

‏Also, this thread is pretty fun.
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#53

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:08 pm
‏This is quite fun huh?

‏1. Goku is food obsessed even more than most Saiyans, give him a break. 2. F*cking up a planet vs destroying it (without trying), you decide. 3. AutoRaise X3? Reviving takes a turn or at least time, so Goku can kill him each time he revives. Also if he never used the power, it may not count. 4. I misunderstood the red sun thing. If ONLY that sun rule & kryptonite affect him, he's disqualified.
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#54

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:09 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Well, Tazy, I just have the fight as "2 guys meet at some place they can survive at and try to kill each other" so it's fair.

‏And a punch to the face would still win.

‏Prove me wrong.
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#55

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:24 pm
‏1. No, the topic is not who Wy would agree with but he would agree with me :p 2. Goku can sense others, sight is a bonus but doesn't require it. 3. Confused he MAY not attack Kefka but he may. Also, if he hit the ground like ya said near Kefka he still may fall into the crator/space due to lack of existing planet. He's POWERFUL dude. 4. Poison takes time, Kefka has no time. 5. *blocks punch to face*
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#56

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 pm
‏From what you're saying IRHP I gather that by GT or atleast when he's first becomes a fourth level super sain, he's got so much power that when he actuly taps into it that he can't properly controll it all therefore Goku would kill himself if he ever used it all.

‏While he never used Life3 in game doesn't mean he couldn't he's the source of all magic in the game by the second half so if the heros have spells X,Y, and Z then so does Kefka. Though I agree it's not really relivent to this fight. What about him inflicting the condemed staus on goku or even using the attack that turns him into pure ICE in otherwords it's like the pterify speel instent KO if it hits and while the ice spell didn't always hit it wasn't as useless as the heros petrefy spell was.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#57

‏Post by X-3 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 pm
‏You DO know what Kefka looks like during the final battle, right?

‏He's not actually ON the ground.

‏also superman wins...but he'd team up and have dinner with goku anyway, so...
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#58

‏Post by Blake » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:44 pm
‏I never finished FF6 either, but I think with all those status effects mentioned anyone would be 'tripping balls'

‏Ruining someone's co-ordination in the least bit can have quite an impact on a fight, and let's not forget if he uses 'hp down to one' (as my friend calls it), then those status effects would pwn him no matter what.

‏But so far out of all of our discussions, I think superman was the best debate so I would nominate him as the one can take out Goku the most.
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#59

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:49 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ 5. *blocks punch to face*

‏God Damnit. You're not being fair :mad:

‏Also, I believe GT is Non-Canon, so :p
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#60

‏Post by Mushi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:23 pm
‏Note:

‏Kefka was about to destroy the universe before the troupe of God-like heroes "defeated" him.

‏Destroy the universe.

‏Think about it.
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#61

‏Post by Metal Man » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:59 pm
‏DBZ Dan Hibiki.

‏I'd link you the video, but he appears to curse nonstop while using Nightmare Broli's animations and shooting death.
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#62

‏Post by Wyborn » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:39 pm
‏A guy leaves for a few weeks and you guys go bonkers. Who the Hell is everyone?

‏Why was I linked to this topic

‏Get off my lawn
‏Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!

‏For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
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#63

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:25 pm
‏Who you telling to get off the lawn?

‏Heh Winner Kefka!

‏- You stupid dog!
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#64

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:32 pm
‏By that token, who cares if Wyborn agrees that Ganon would ass**** Goku:

‏Vash the Stampede, at full capacity, no remorse, and with both angel arms, can blow up three planets in a row with a single shot. As such, Vash > Goku.
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#65

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:36 pm
‏Heh I didn't know that though I haven't seen Trigun but from what i've hear Vash is a pretty pacifistic guy.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#66

‏Post by Galefore » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:38 pm
‏I made a note of "without remorse". If you remove his conscience, he would win.

‏In other words, use Knives, as Knives would more easily ass**** Goku and wouldn't cry about it.
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#67

‏Post by Metal Man » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:17 am
‏I forget... Agent Smith would probably kill Goku and shrug afterwards, perhaps even assimilating him instead and becoming all-powerful :p
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#68

‏Post by Deepfake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:00 am

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I dunno Xman, Onslaught or anyone Hiroyuki mentioned so to be fair, state their strongest feat for me.

‏Nate Grey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

‏ X-Man has the ability to tap into the enormous psychic resources of the astral plane in order to manipulate matter and energy. This grants him incredible psychic powers including telepathy and telekinesis. He can use his telepathy to read minds and even read residual thought imprints left on objects touched by people (psychometry), communicate with others by broadcasting his thoughts, control minds, create illusions by altering the perceptions of others, fire psionic blasts that can scramble an opponent's thought processes (causing the victim either intense pain, or rendering them unconscious), project his mind into the astral plane and even pull the astral projections of other telepaths into the physical world, and sense dimensional rifts or anomalies.

‏ His telekinesis allows him to move, levitate, and manipulate matter by using his thoughts, create defensive shields by focusing his telekinetic energies around himself and others, and channel his psychic powers into explosive psionic force blasts. By levitating himself, he can fly at amazing speeds, and he can phase through solid matter by mentally shifting the object's molecules around his as he moves forward. His mental fine motor skills are so acute that he can mentally manipulate dust particles and water vapor to refract lightwaves and create holograms. He also has creative uses of his powers such as using his telekinesis to channel the Earth's magnetic field through the electrocurrent of his brain and generate devastating electromagnetic pulses. X-Man even learned that he could use his telekinesis to transport himself into other dimensions by mentally bending the dimensional barriers that separate one reality from another.

‏ One of the most impressive moments that displayed Nate's powers was when he easily trounced Exodus, whom he was known to match in telepathic ability[1], a mutant with vast psionic powers who had previously managed to simultaneously defeat the combined efforts of the X-Men and the Avengers in combat;crush Genosha via a force field; mentally resist Professor X's mental attacks;immobilise Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey and crystal in a force field; amplify the hatred of Genoshan mutants for humans and shield himself from physical attacks[2].

‏ This defeat left Exodus humiliated - especially since he is centuries old while Nate was only 16 (he confirms himself to be physically 17 later on) [3]. In addition, an alternate version of Jean Grey, Queen Jean, described Nate Grey as the ultimate telekinetic with the statement; "It is what all Nate Greys have been on every earth"[4]. This, in addition with his telepathy, makes X-Man one of the most powerful mutants in Marvel history, among such company as, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, Mad Jim Jaspers, and Hyperstorm.Upon examination by Moira Mactaggert, an expert in the field of genetics and mutation, she suggested his psionic powers could rival that of a Phoenix Force-imbued Jean Grey[5][6].

‏Onslaught (comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

‏ Onslaught possesses immense telepathy and telekinesis, could project psi-blasts of devastating force, assume total mental control, induce illusions, mental or physical paralysis, and able to alter one's perception. He was especially powerful on the astral plane. Onslaught was also capable of manipulating magnetic fields. Another demonstration of his raw power, was when Onslaught ripped the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak out of the supposedly indestructible Juggernaut's body, and his tremendous power of energy manipulation was also demonstrated when he integrated Franklin Richards into himself, who is beyond an Omega-Level mutant and has been stated by Roma to be Celestial level even in his current childlike age. After fully evolving into his own, separate consciousness, Onslaught combined Franklin Richards' vast reality-altering powers with his own, and his powers were increased to virtually omnipotent level. At that level he was even able to create a new sun. Onslaught stated that he could geometrically increase his strength by will. [14] He knocked the Juggernaut, literally, across North America. He was also able to go toe-to-toe in a physical fight with an enraged "Savage" Hulk, although the Hulk was able to rip his armor off and overpower him.

‏And since the entry on Nathan Grey brings up the subject, I had best mention the Phoenix.

‏Jean Grey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

‏ The Phoenix can revive, absorb, re-channel, and preserve the life-force of any kind of life-form, meaning that she can take life energy from one person and give it to others, heal herself with the same life energy, or even resurrect the dead, since the Phoenix is the sum of all life and death. As Phoenix, Jean's powers escalate to an incalculable level: allowing her to rearrange matter at a subatomic level, fly unaided through space, survive in any atmosphere, and generate massive destructive blasts and atmospheric disturbances. She has Cosmic pyrokinesis power, which allows her to create, control, and manipulate cosmic fire which is very strong. Note that her cosmic fire is not dependent on oxygen, which means that she can ignite it under seemingly impossible conditions such as vacuum space or underwater. Her cosmic fire burns enemies by molecules, aided by her power to control molecularity. So, her cosmic fire will burn her enemies until they die or she extinguishes it by her own will. She manifests a "telekinetic sensitivity" (called "the Manifestation of the Phoenix") to objects in her immediate environment that lets her feel the texture of objects, their molecular patterns, feel when other objects come into contact with them, and probe them at a molecular level. She can also create stargates that can transport her to anywhere in the universe instantaneously. When she engages her Phoenix powers, Jean is surrounded in a flame-like energy corona that takes the form of a large bird of prey. As the Phoenix, Jean can resurrect herself after death and is unaffected by the passage of time. It should be noted that she isn't "borrowing" the powers of the Phoenix Force (as is perceived by some due to the fact that Jean was a host for the Force); Death itself has said that Jean is the rightful owner of those powers.[43] Further evolution allowed her to actually become one with the Phoenix Force (as opposed to serving as its host) due to her status as an Omega-level mutant with unlimited potential, in which it was revealed that Jean was the White Phoenix of the Crown.[44] As the White Phoenix, Jean can manipulate and control whole time-lines, as seen when she brought the alternate future of Here Comes Tomorrow into the White-Hot Room.[45]

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#69

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:02 am
‏I forgot the Phoenix. She'd rip Goku to shreds.
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#70

‏Post by Deepfake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:14 am
‏I'd also like to mention Raistlin Majere.

‏Raistlin Majere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

‏He became a god of destruction, even as a human.
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#71

‏Post by VG_Addict » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:29 am
‏Thanos the Mad Titan would kick Goku's ass even WITHOUT the Infinity Gauntlet.
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#72

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:10 am
‏Interesting point of fact: Nate Grey, Onslaught, and the Phoenix are all also incredibly stupid.

‏Since my opinion on Ganondorf isn't really relevant here (I guess?) I'm going to point out that Unicron, depending on the continuity you pick, is the size of Saturn, has already eaten the entire universe at least once (and is therefore capable of devouring black holes without suffering damage), and is capable of fighting a warrior created specifically to kill him by the sentient core of the universe and winning 100% of the time. That is not a fair fight.
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#73

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:44 pm
‏Its valid, however the fight over who you would agree with got annoying is all.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#74

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:53 pm
‏I may need to do a couple posts to cover ALL of this...

‏1. Kefka came close but he can't get his first move outta the gate before a speed of light Goku is in his face with a Kamehameha = death. 2. Cheap ass Unicron, well, what Wy described sounds like a breach of the rules to me. 3. According to what I'm hearing, Super Man can only die with kryptonite and "red sun people" and therefore is out. 4.Onslaught had trouble with Hulk but can beat GOKU?! YEAH RIGHT! Hulk slowly destroys tanks well enough but even NAPPPA can do it better!
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#75

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:07 pm
‏Forgive me if I'm wrong but as I recall goku was NEVER one to throw the first punch in DBZ. He ALWAYS tried to stettle things through diplomicy first. Because of this he would try to reason with kekfa allowing said crazy god of magic the chance to attack, thus Kefka still has a fighting chance at winning.

‏Superman gets his power from the solar radiation of our yellow sun because he was born under a red sun. I don't know if Magic can kill him but it can weaken him. The red suneffect can be duplicated through causing the refraction of particles in our atmoshpear to replace the blue sky with a red sky.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#76

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:10 pm
‏Man, you ignored my Vash and/or Knives argument. They are not a breach of the rules, as they are killable, but they are still stronger.

‏But I'm sure you'll argue and say it's against the rules. If this topic is about deciding who is stronger than Goku or who could whoop his ass in a fight, you shouldn't even have rules. You just seem to shoot down everyone else's favorite character whenever we propose an option. Oh, and some advice: if you don't know who someone is, do some research. It'll help you out.

‏Oh, and Kratos.

‏KRATOS.

‏****ING GOD OF WAR KRATOS.

‏He would win. Hands down.
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#77

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:16 pm
‏5. Phoenix can revive? Even if there is NOTHING left of her? I thought not. 6. Nate Grey? You guys all forget these characters wouldn't even see Goku coming...even if they could touch him, his speed is unsurpassed. 6. Vash? Is that a joke? Guns can kill him. He can destroy 3 planets? Wow, Kid Buu destroyed how many now...? 7.Dan Hibiki? From Street Fighter...? 8. Agent Smith? Explain please. 9. Goku couldn't control his ape form but had complete control of his SSj4 powers.
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#78

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:20 pm

‏ 6. Vash? Is that a joke? Guns can kill him. He can destroy 3 planets? Wow, Kid Buu destroyed how many now...?

‏You're a ****ing *******. You know that? That's not how you have a nerd debate, you're supposed to ****ing give me reasons. You're just acting like a fantard. Vash, in his fullest of angers, would blast Goku's little overpowered existence into next week. Oh, and he's faster. I promise, he would out-speed Goku without trying.

‏And on that note, it looks like you've gone from "OH YOU CANT KILL HIM NO FAIR BAWWWW" to "OH HE CAN BE KILLED BY NORMAL WEAPONS THATS TOO EASY BAWWWW".

‏And, remember...

‏KRATOS.
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#79

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:31 pm
‏I ignored no arguments and I am merely saying some characters can't hold water (like Kratos) vs Goku. I have rules since Ryuk for example would be unstoppable making this no fun. :p PK, you are right about Goku never killing unless he has to but theoretically he's THE best warrior. I outlaw invincible characters and such but Goku CAN be killed, he is NOT invincible. No special circumstances like "kryptonite" are needed. Ya just need to be a bigger badass. Goku is fair, Ryuk is not. THOSE are fair rules eh?
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#80

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:36 pm
‏But you shoot down characters that could feasibly have a chance and have weaknesses, like Vash, Phoenix, and Kratos.

‏Kratos could win after he is given the greatest of powers he receives in the course of the games. While Goku is busy doing a stereotypical anime monologue, Kratos would mercilessly cut him to shreds.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#81

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:36 pm
‏Goku would kick the asses of Vash and Knives and Kratos and a bunch of other people mentioned in this topic, but some others would be able to take him depending on what you accept as being canon.

‏Galactus would probably be disqualified for the same reasons as Unicron, I'm guessing...

‏I'm going to say that Buu could kill Goku on his own, for instance.
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#82

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:39 pm
‏You know he does have a bit of a point, if Goku is allowed all his uber power then so should his challengers be allowed all thier power.

‏This means that Kefka is still in the running and is allowed use of his out of combat power the light of judgment. A blast fired from his hand or finger that can carve massive trenches in the earth, oblitrate cities, and Strecht across hemispheres of a globe.

‏Also on the subject of Goku's full power, I still say that if Goku is so strong that his power can blow up nearby planets that going to his max would kill him, and most likely destroy the planet he's on.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#83

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:39 pm
‏Sorry I am posting in slow bits. I am using a PSP, gimme a break!

‏Heh, er, calm down, we're all buds right? :) I just meant Vash's beam only marked the moon while Master Roshi destroyed it easily and still fought & beat Goku...BTW, Goku = speed of light = fastest.
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#84

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:42 pm
‏Okay, let's move this to a technical point:

‏GOKU ****ING SUCKS. Toriyama is a hack for creating another goddamn superman. I cannot stand any character with too much power and too many abilities, and as such I consider him unbalanced. Sorry, that's just my opinion. I'm afraid any argument for him is pretty invalid to me because, admittedly, I'm pretty biased towards any****ingthing that isn't Dragon Ball Z.
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#85

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:44 pm
‏IRHP is trying to make Goku cooler than everything, by forcing his power down your throats..... ;)
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#86

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:44 pm
‏Yeah

‏Take a chill pill there hombre

‏Have a tall glass of coke and smile
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#87

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:45 pm
‏You wanna know how Goku isn't Godmode character?

‏He died. Three times.

‏From people who were stronger.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#88

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:45 pm

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ But you shoot down characters that could feasibly have a chance and have weaknesses, like Vash, Phoenix, and Kratos.

‏Cut up Goku? Ever see Goku block Trunks' sword with ONE finger? It is neat.
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#89

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:45 pm
‏Oh ho, sarcasm. My whole argument has fallen apart, and I can never pick it up!

‏^That's just ridiculous. In our circles, we call that "God-mode", or "****ing stupid." I give up on you, you're hopeless. Go find a balanced, likable character, and maybe we'll talk.

‏Also, Panfan is right. But of course, you'll use your superiority complex to shoot that down too. "OMG BUT HE GOT STRUNGER HUR HUR SPEED OF LIGHT"
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#90

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:49 pm

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ Oh ho, sarcasm. My whole argument has fallen apart, and I can never pick it up!

‏ ^That's just ridiculous. In our circles, we call that "God-mode", or "****ing stupid." I give up on you, you're hopeless. Go find a balanced, likable character, and maybe we'll talk.

‏ Also, Panfan is right. But of course, you'll use your superiority complex to shoot that down too. "OMG BUT HE GOT STRUNGER HUR HUR SPEED OF LIGHT"

‏Hey

‏How about discussing things with him instead of exploding like an eight-year-old? It's an argument about who would beat up who involving a DBZ character. The least you can do is bring some cold objectivity to the table.
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#91

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:51 pm
‏^Excuse me, I do believe our friend here is the one acting like a child. It's like those damned arguments in grade school in the school yard. You can't win, because in our dear friends logic, ITS GOKU OMG.

‏And if you didn't notice, I'm now using his useless tactic of merely disagreeing without ANY backing. I'm seeing if it works.

‏NEWSFLASH: IT MOTHER****ING DOES NOT

‏So yeah. Now you're both getting a failing grade. Go back to class.
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#92

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:52 pm
‏Wy, Buu would never touch SSj4 Goku, I mean, in DBZ he would but I count GT. Also, who's forcing what down whose throats? That's not my intention at all. I just made a debate/game topic with what I thought to be fair rules. Hm...
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#93

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:54 pm
‏Ahem

^
‏^ Even with objectivity though, isn't the entire debate kind of grade school-ish? It's kind of hard to compare characters from different works of fiction.
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#94

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:54 pm
‏GT is, by definition, non-canon, since DB was supposed to end with Cell.

‏^Ah, some common sense. Thank you for refreshing my nerves; I always knew at least one of my fellow mods was sensible.
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#95

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:56 pm
‏Galefore: don't act like a jerk. Uncool. It's a stupid argument. Stop getting worked up over it.

‏IRHP: I never really took GT as being canon, but if we count it then I guess I have to acquiesce.

‏I'll throw out some more later.

‏ Swordmaster Link wrote:
^
‏ ^ Even with objectivity though, isn't the entire debate kind of grade school-ish? It's kind of hard to compare characters from different works of fiction.

‏Yeah, obviously. But that doesn't justify yelling in caps and swearing like a twelve-year-old who just learned how to work AIM and realized people can't tell his mom what he's up to.
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#96

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:57 pm
‏but omg wy its goku

‏^Oh ho, personal insults! I like, you're proving your worth! Too bad none of that applies without gross exaggeration. Remember, I'm merely miming IRHP to see if I can win with his little game.
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#97

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 pm
‏No, thats just my point Wy. That was basically my way of saying "chill, we're talking about how fictional characters would beat the crap out of each other...not a big deal either way".
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#98

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 pm

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ GT is, by definition, non-canon, since DB was supposed to end with Cell.

‏ ^Ah, some common sense. Thank you for refreshing my nerves; I always knew at least one of my fellow mods was sensible.

‏Well, I understand where it should have ended. Infact, I hear it should have ended with Cell. But I certainly count Buu Saga too.
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#99

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:00 pm
‏Gale: I'm not insulting you. I'm saying you're getting worked up for no reason and acting completely inappropriate, which you are.

‏SML: Gotcha. Roger that.
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#100

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:00 pm
‏Fine, fine. I apologize to you guys, I lost my head. I'll calm down and try throwing some more characters out there. Maybe I'll finally find one that's immune to BUT ITS GOKU logic.
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#101

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:01 pm
‏Isn't Goku allowed to move at light speed only when he's using his instent transmission? while I'm sure he's used it as a fighting ablity more then once orignaly it was intended for transportation. Basicly he's kinda like a warp tile from Zelda in that aspect.

‏I still think that Kefka has a fighting chance at winning given goku's near self destructiv habits of almost never throwing the firts punch and adimrble attempts to converts a collection madd men to sainity. However Kefka is the kind of manipulitive bastard who can take advantge of this. As shown with his rather impressive list of inhumain deeds. Compile that with his formidible power and you've got a very formidible fight on your hands.

‏I'd also try arguing that Dragonmast Alex from Lunar Silver Star Story Complete and Ness from Earthbound are in the running but I don't think I could present an adiqite case for them.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#102

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:04 pm
‏Hey IRHP:

‏If the you from today argued with the you from eight years ago, with you now supporting Goku and the you from then supporting Mewtwo, who would win?
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#103

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:04 pm
‏About the speed of light thing.

‏From DB Wiki:

‏Even though it is not exactly certain how fast Goku can travel, on several occasions, it has been suggested that Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Z, could move faster then the speed of light. This however is flawed considering that the Z senshi themselves watch the light from someone's aura to see where they are during fast paced battles. Vegito was suggested to have the ability to move faster then light speed, considering that he told Super Buu that he had to feel the movement of his Ki because he wouldn't be able to see him with his eyes.

‏Some people argue that Goku was indeed faster then light-speed by the end of Dragon Ball Z, but could move instantaneously while using the Shunkan Ido. The Shunkan Ido translates directly into English as "Instantaneous movement", which suggests that the location change happens instantly, not at light speed.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#104

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:20 pm

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ Fine, fine. I apologize to you guys, I lost my head. I'll calm down and try throwing some more characters out there. Maybe I'll finally find one that's immune to BUT ITS GOKU logic.

‏You apologize? Well, that's fine and I apologize as well, I've been a smartass in this debate. But you know, I thought I was being fair, but maybe I wasn't. Nonetheless (should it be all in one one word?) I don't think I can take on a debate if I'm seen as having "BUT ITS GOKU" logic.

‏BTW, me from 8 years ago would win. I'd lose interest and forget about it today while the brat me would call me names and declare victory. Surprisingly, you seem exactly the same. Eerily so.
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#105

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:23 pm
‏Hey now

‏Hey

‏I grew up too
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#106

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:31 pm
‏The only real complaint I had was the whole light speed arguement but now that doesn't seem as set in stone so it still seems possible to debate.

‏-You stupid dog!
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#107

‏Post by Blake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:33 pm
‏Well I need to read up on page 5 and 6, but there's something that's been on my mind for a while as far as the rules.

‏You ban 'invincible' characters. At first this seems practical, but when you look at your character Goku he can instantaneously be just about anywhere at anytime. I would argue that is a form of invincibility. He cannot take damage because he is so fast.

‏Anyway, I'll still play by your rules just cause Goku, who is limited to about two attacks (Kamehamaha and Spirit Bomb) can be beaten by... (as Metal Man said)

‏Agent Smith.

‏Agent Smith is instantaneously everywhere on the planet Earth in the Matrix Revolutions. It doesn't matter whether Goku can teleport or not, Goku cannot take on 6 billion Smiths who are essentially all one person while being 6 billion different people. Especially 'Oracle Smith.' He put up a damn good fight and basically killed Neo until Neo self-destructed or something.
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#108

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:35 pm
‏Smith only exists inside the Matrix, though. Goku isn't in the Matrix.
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#109

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:59 pm
‏1. In the show Goku stated he moves at the speed of light. I forget how fast that is but he stated how fast it is, saying he moves that fast. Also, many characters can teleport including FF characters, so its not, to me at least, a form of invincibility. 2. Well, if Goku were in the Matrix he probably couldn't fight them all but they are weak...could they even affect him? To be fair I only seen 1&2 so maybe they could.
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#110

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:08 pm
‏I thought he said he could only move that fast via instent transmission?

‏What about my argument about how goku shouldn't be able to reach his max power without destroying himself and the planet he was on?

‏- You stupid dog!
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#111

‏Post by Blake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:09 pm
‏Meh, movie's too old for spoiler tags, not to mention you need to read this anyway heh:

‏If the ultimate Smith pinned Goku down and the other Smiths began to clone him, it would only take so long until Goku succumbed. Because Smith isn't human, I don't believe he suffers from fatigue.
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#112

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:45 pm
‏1. PK, Instant Transmission (IT) is only a technique. In the Cooler movie, Goku & Cooler battle while using IT. 2. Even if Goku would destroy the planet with his power, he could immediatly leave to annther like Namek. 3. The androids don't fatigue either but died. If the Smiths COULD hold him down they win but even weak Bardock was unaffected by Frieza's dogpiling minions. Goku should easily be unrestrained...I mean, their attacks seem limited to using crowbars and appear to have low physical power.
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#113

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:54 pm
‏If Unicron tried to eat Goku, or the planet Goku was on, Goku could do a Spirit Bomb in his mouth, or something like that. Let's stop arguing about Superman and Ganondorf and discuss someone else fighting Goku. Sephiroth?
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#114

‏Post by Blake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:02 pm
‏Now I don't exactly remember, but I think I can safely say Unicron can devour a planet in less than five minutes.

‏Now Goku's spirit bomb? I can argue that he would be relying on the life of planet earth thus it would not be only Goku versus Unicron but it doesn't really matter. If Goku tried to charge up an ultimate spirit bomb, which seems to take at least three episodes (or possibly more), Unicron would have already eaten him by that point.

‏If Goku used a spirit bomb with only his ki, I doubt it would be enough to kill Unicron since I recall spirit bomb sucking unless you have life force from everyone supplying it.
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#115

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:12 pm
‏The Spirit Bomb would take too long to use at full capacity. Sephiroth? Ever watch the FF7 movie? Sephiroth's not so strong. Cloud, who can't even fly beat his ass. He's cool but even Sora can beat him. If anyone says Sora can beat Goku, then I'll piss myself laughing. :p
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#116

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:18 pm
‏IT may jsut be a an ability but still it has to take a toll on Goku's power While he may be able to have full use of it for a short length of time it would graduly drain him if he kept using it. We have already established that gokue would most likely try to reason with Kefka thus allowing Kefka to get in the first hit as he more then most villans really hates sappy hero monalogs.

‏Yes but as he powers up more and more his Ki gets so strong he looses controll of it, this causes the distruction of nearby planets and would mostlikely kill him in the process.

‏Kefka's power while incredibly distructive is under the clown's controll therefore he isn't going to blow himself up with it. With a fine degree of controll. proper experence and use of power someone weaker can beat someone who has mearly raw uncontrolled enrgy at thier disposel.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#117

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:32 pm
‏If Kefka is connected to a clown wouldn't that count as fusion thus disqualifying him?
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#118

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:34 pm
‏Kefka is a clown.

‏He's also capable of tearing apart the very fabric of the universe.
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#119

‏Post by Metal Man » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:44 pm
‏But could Goku defeat Giygas?
‏Super Smash Quest: Fighting evil since 2002.
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#120

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:48 pm
‏No.
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#121

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:50 pm
‏Sentry (Robert Reynolds) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

‏not to mention ...
‏super sonic
‏dark sonic
‏super shadow
‏chaos from sonic
‏Sephiroth (of course)
‏sora (B**chhole)
‏vegito (it's been established that he is the most powerful fighter in db series)
‏onslaught
‏phoenix
‏any hulk
‏ganondorf/ganon.
‏wolverine (regeneration b*tches)
‏master chief
‏proffesor X
‏kefka
‏unicron...
‏*deep breath*

‏I mention all these while still being a huge db/z/gt fan.

‏PS:I'll list more later.
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#122

‏Post by Wyborn » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:55 pm
‏You cannot be serious when you say the Sonic the Hedgehog characters, Wolverine, and Master Chief.

‏Can you?
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#123

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:59 pm

‏ You cannot be serious

‏I am very much so.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#124

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:59 pm
‏Master Chief made me chuckle more than a little bit, but I don't see why someone like Super Sonic is so implausible.
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#125

‏Post by VG_Addict » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:02 pm
‏You know why Thanos could beat Goku? Because Thanos beats down Silver Surfer on a regular basis, and SS would completely OWN Goku in a fight.

‏Thanos was also able to fight evenly with Odin, and Odin is LEAGUES above Goku. Don't believe me? Check this out:

‏Odin (Marvel Comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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#126

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:02 pm
‏For IRHP's sake here's a link to a picture of Kefka's final form. http://www.videogamesprites.net/FinalFa ... 0Kefka.gif

‏Heh The big Bad from Earthbound, oh yeah he'd really screw with Goku.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#127

‏Post by Blake » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:03 pm
‏Lmao.. why didn't I think of Sonic.

‏CHAOS CONTROL!!

‏Never mind Super Sonic. He's got the homing attack which means he hits you if he uses it(unless you use it on the final sonic versus shadow battle in SA2 where he homes in after the enemy for about 5 seconds before falling back down :p ). And last but not least: if he's hit with a kamehamaha he'll just drop a few rings that he'll pick up and continue to fight.

‏And while I'm joking around I was also going to bring up dragon hawks from Warcraft III(for X-3 so kindly making a Warcraft reference earlier).

‏The dragon hawk can use ariel shackles, which binds an enemy unit in the air. It prevents the enemy from attacking and inflicts damage during the process. When the dragonhawk is within range of the enemy, he latches on immediately (since he's so damn cheap) so it's not really an attack Goku can dodge. :D

‏Oh yeah then there's Archimonde. He has divine armor, so all attacks that are dealt to him are reduced to 5% of their normal damage. He is immune to spells which I would consider ki since it's not a physical attack. Like every other Eredar, he has bash which stuns people, which is freaking hilarious since it's so damn annoying. He can then summon a dark portal to bring in demons or use rain of chaos to call down infernals. His regeneration rate is quite ridiculous as well, seeing as loses at most maybe 5 damage from a group of soldiers who fall within seconds due to awesome bash and AOE damage. Oh yes, and then there's always this:

‏[video]x5YngGRS13E[/video]

‏Edit: Meh, the subtitles are on youtube but are lame looking. There's got to be a better video that uses the game's subtitles somewhere.

‏Anyway, that was pretty much a joke post. However, I would say Archimonde does stand a chance against Goku.
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#128

‏Post by Metal Man » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:43 pm
‏Wait.. I know!

‏Rand, err, the Dragon Reborn, what's his name from the Wheel of Time.

‏Either that or the God Emperor of Dune. He'd just predict everything Goku does and screw him over with fate.
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#129

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:59 pm
‏This topic should be renamed to "Goku: How many different ways can we think of having him annihilated?!"
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#130

‏Post by X-3 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:38 pm
‏Guildmaster brings up a point with Chaos, though. The guy can't actually be killed, only sealed, which just pisses him off. Though, that may breach some rules.

‏Archimonde is powerful, but I can't help but laugh at how he died. Puts a whole new perspective on the danger in climbing trees.
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#131

‏Post by VG_Addict » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:40 pm

‏ X-3 wrote:
‏ VGA brings up a point with Chaos, though. The guy can't actually be killed, only sealed, which just pisses him off. Though, that may breach some rules.

‏ Archimonde is powerful, but I can't help but laugh at how he died. Puts a whole new perspective on the danger in climbing trees.

‏I didn't bring up Chaos, Blake did. I brought up Thanos.
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#132

‏Post by X-3 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:42 pm
‏My bad, I got Guildmaster and VGA mixed up. Now I feel horrible.

‏I had an idea for a character who could possibly match Goku, but I forgot who it was...For now, I'll just say Darkwing Duck while I giggle to myself.

‏EDIT-Suzumiya Haruhi could technically beat Goku: however, she's not actually aware of her god-like powers, so...
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#133

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:45 pm
‏:eek:
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#134

‏Post by Mushi » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:50 pm
‏Ain't Called "The Tower Of Kefka" For Nothin'

‏ PSYCHOKID909 wrote:
‏ For IRHP's sake here's a link to a picture of Kefka's final form. http://www.videogamesprites.net/FinalFa ... 0Kefka.gif

‏ - You stupid dog!

‏I'll go ahead and fix that for you.

‏Image .

‏For size: Goku = .
‏:clap:
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#135

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:53 pm
‏Isn't it obvious?

‏Image
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#136

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:12 pm
‏Thanks for the pictures, but I was using a link because IRHP is using a PSP for his web connection and apprently posted imigages don't show up on it.

‏To Masa, should I know what that picture is from?

‏- You stupid dog!
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#137

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:06 pm
‏Here's a hint: It's a pun.
‏SWORDLESS OCARINA OF TIME AND MORE GENERAL FLAILING AVAILABLE AT THIS FINE CHANNELHUB.
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#138

‏Post by Deepfake » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:56 am

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ 5. Phoenix can revive? Even if there is NOTHING left of her? I thought not. 6. Nate Grey? You guys all forget these characters wouldn't even see Goku coming...even if they could touch him, his speed is unsurpassed.

‏The Phoenix could cause him to be unborn by fragmenting the reality of his existence.

‏Nathan Grey would attack him via the astral plane, and turn him into a vegetable. You cannot attack what you cannot see.

‏Onslaught could control the metal fibers in Goku's bloodstream, and cause them all to pool into a single mass, tearing them directly from Goku's heart.

‏Every single one of them could control his thoughts, and cause him to kill himself. Every single one of these characters is mortal. Goku himself breaks the rules, because he returns from the world of the dead - he is not mortal.

‏And of course the Phoenix can bring herself back, despite being physically immaterial. She can manipulate molecules as well as control the fabric of reality, based on the persistence of her astral presence.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#139

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:00 am

‏ Metal Man wrote:
‏ Wait.. I know!

‏ Rand, err, the Dragon Reborn, what's his name from the Wheel of Time.

‏Yes, definitely. I was just thinking him.

‏On that note, the Killing Frost and Doyle, the Queen's Darkness would both own Goku. I don't even need to explain how or why, not in the face of, "well Goku would just do ---". I can safely assure you that either of them would crush Goku. =]
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#140

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:52 am
^
‏This.

‏ PSYCHOKID909 wrote:

‏ To Masa, should I know what that picture is from?

‏ - You stupid dog!

‏Spoiler.
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#141

‏Post by Minukelsus » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:54 am
‏Hell I'd own Goku, tank me up on Scotch WHISK and I could probably smash up Goku the "sissy" seriously, I'd grind that sucka into oblivion without breaking a wee sweat. He'd be reduced to ashes in like five seconds!!!
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#142

‏Post by Blake » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 am
‏Oh yeah I forgot. Someone mentioned Buu earlier. He can easily beat Goku. Chocolate time plus a few jaw movements, although Goku should probably already be dead by the time he's turned into chocolate since it isn't a living organism.
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#143

‏Post by Wyborn » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:27 am
‏The Phoenix's self-destructive psychosis means it wouldn't be able to finish that fight. After butting heads with Galactus, it realizes the danger of using its own powers and wouldn't expend the energy necessary to fight Goku - even past that point, it's not clear that the Phoenix would be able to win (really).

‏Nate Grey can't attack him on the astral plan, have of the fighting Goku does throughout the series uses his soul as the medium for combat.

‏Onslaught couldn't take the Hulk. That's not a fight.

‏Goku's basically immune to mind control - it's come up a lot in DragonBall. Repeatedly.

‏None of those three would be able to beat him. Also: they are incredibly stupid characters whose existence is indicative of everything that was wrong with American comic books in the 90's. They're not as bad as Carnage, but they're close.

‏Rand Al'Thor at his most powerful simply is not capable of wielding enough power to stop Goku. That's all there is to it - even with the statue of the man with the orb, he's just not powerful enough. There are book characters who are powerful enough, but he is not one of them.

‏The thing about Goku is that he's written to be able to fight and win against anything that exists, given time and the drive to do so. If we assume he has the drive and the absolute limits of his powers, the very nature of his character means he's not going to be defeated by the majority of characters here.

‏He could eat the Phoenix Force.

‏Nate Grey would kill himself trying to pierce Goku's mind.

‏Professor X would be cassting his thoughts into an empty cavern.

‏Onslaught would be torn in half, and probably thrown into the Sun.

‏Superman would suffer much the same fate.

‏So would the Hulk.

‏Super Sonic and his retinue would be crushed between his palms.

‏Master Chief wouldn't even be able to hurt him.

‏Neither would Chaos.

‏Or Sephiroth.

‏Or many of the other people mentioned so far. You see whre I'm going with this. The whole point of Goku's story is that he goes from saving the world on the smallest scale imaginable (keeping Pilaf from wishing on the Dragonballs) to saving the universe on the largest (killing a creature that would be able to rend creation to shreds). That's what he is. That's the whole point. He's the Japanese equivalent to American comic writers having to come up with bigger and bigger and bigger threats for heroes to face in the 60's, 70's, and 80's - unstoppable, unbeatable, unphasable, a world-crusher, someone who works on a scale so vast that it defies decent storytelling. That's the way it is.

‏There are characters who are more powerful than he is, but it takes more thought than picking the most powerful characters from your favorite series.

‏Here's one:

‏Image

‏The Sentry, Golden Guardian of Good, the most powerful superhero in the history of the Marvel Universe (events in World War Hulk notwithstanding). There is no clear upper limit to his powers - he's fought and combated threats that every other superhero in the world was powerless to stop. He was able to erase memories of himself from the entire universe - everyone, from the most powerful psychics to the most guarded super geniuses, was affected by his mental powers. His power grows until he's just strong enough to neutralize a threat - he fought the Hulk at his most enraged to a standstill (which Onslaught was torn apart by), he's fought the Void when it was so powerful that every other superhero on the planet pt together was being butchered by it - Hell, he's fought Galactus to a standstill.

‏He can travel to the Sun and back in a matter of minutes - literally at the speed of light, then. Throwing particularly difficult-to-kill threats into the Sun is how he does business.

‏He can be nuked and have it do nothing more than mess up his costume.

‏He has the mental powers to crush any other psychic in a universe that teems with them.

‏He could fight the Phoenix Force. He could stop Thanos by himself. He's turned back Galactus once already. He's stronger than Thor, the Hulk, Hercules, the Thing, Wonder Man, Carol Danvers, Ares, Odin, Zeus - whoever. He's more bad-ass. Because he has to be. He's the living embodiment of what it means to be that kind of superhero - just strong enough to defeat any threat.

‏And yeah. He's stronger than Goku.
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#144

‏Post by Metal Man » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:48 am
‏Wait wait wait. I know.

‏Chuck Norris.

‏Thread over! :lol:
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#145

‏Post by Wyborn » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:49 am

‏ Metal Man wrote:
‏ Wait wait wait. I know.

‏ Chuck Norris.

‏ Thread over! :lol:

‏Go to your room.
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#146

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:57 am
‏I know who could beat Goku!

‏Goku.

‏Yeah, think about that.
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#147

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:35 pm
‏URGH!!!!! Brain..........a'splode.......ing.....
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#148

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:59 pm
‏Sooo...
‏I guess I get the point for sentry?
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#149

‏Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:31 pm
‏No one has brought up Alucard, from Hellsing. He isn't as bad as Goku in that department, but he is pretty much invincible. I never liked Dragonball anyway.

‏Let's see, he has two huge handguns he seems to be able to fire without ever running out. He laughs at being decapitated, he can regenerate himself from a pile of mush. He has a wide range of supernatural powers that aren't completely defined. He can transform himself into about anything, surround his enemy with shadows, eyes, appearing everywhere at once. He can summon demons and familars. He absorbs the souls of all those he has killed and can call all of them up, millions, hundreds of thousands, whatever, all at once. At his full power, he's near invincible. And of course, he can rip a man's arm off with a mere movement of his hand, so he's really strong, he go through solid material, he has telepathy, he has some ability to hypnotize as well. And, he is completely merciless, so he would not hesitate to kill Goku. Being weak against sunlight and water hurts him badly though.

‏I also will mention Father, the antagonist of Fullmetal Alchemist. He is also immortal, and contains many souls. He can regenerate, and weapons have no affect on him. He can use alchemy just by willing it, and can use any material around him. He can break all the laws of alchemy, basically creating new metal for Alphonse out of thin air. His powers are not well defined beyond that, but, seeing as how he can use any material, make it into anything, and do anything with it, has a multitude of souls in him, and can even use souls as material, fighting him would be hard. Nothing seems to affect him, and he could kill most just by willing them to be crushed by a mass of metal he created from the air, or liquifying the ground they stand on and watching them drown in it. He can also use the opponents own body, and the huge amount of souls he has in him if he lacks other material. He can transmute them into mush on contact, at will, if they touch him. He does have at least one weakness known of, but it won't apply to Goku. I think he'd be formidable.

‏And, I think Rand would be a good match. Remember that he is supposed to defeat a being that is basically a god. He purified a substance that exists in a metaphysical realm, for crying out loud. With that ter'angreal with him connecting him to the sa'angreal shaped like the old man with the orb, he could fight Goku, maybe win. As long as he didn't kill himself with the massive amount of Saidin, anyway.
‏Rand is iffy, I'd agree with Wyborn on that.

‏Lastly, I will posit that God could defeat Goku. Maybe. If not, Chuck Norris would deflect Goku's ki attacks with his balls, laugh, then roundhouse kick him through 100 planets. After that he would punch him in the face, and Goku will be too torn up to stop it. Then Chuck Norris would probably sleep with his mom. And that is why Chuck Norris could beat Goku.
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#150

‏Post by Galefore » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:45 am
‏I still think it would be funny to see someone run up and kill Goku with a butter knife while he's giving a hero monologue.

‏Jokes aside, I'm actually pretty sure Sentry is the only one here that cannot be picked apart by a Goku supporter... Although I'm still thinking the final form of Kefka is a good matchup. It also suffices to say that if Goku where evil, all it would take to beat him is a reluctant hero or some ultimate force for good, because the villain, ultimately, never wins. Too bad Goku is so powerful that the most almighty of reality-eating foes are torn apart by godly powers which are unfortunately a little too Superman-ish for my tastes.
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#151

‏Post by Wyborn » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:59 am
‏Kefka at his full power would blast Goku to smithereens.

‏Why is that a question

‏He's Kefka
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#152

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:47 pm
‏Gow = crap. This is a fact. Assuming he lives to fight Kefka it means he stands a chance against him or could technically beat him. He certainly at least could play an equal role to the other FF6 characters in defeating Kefka. Kefka can beat Goku? Gow can beat Kefka? That means Gow can beat Goku? Ha. Anyway, Sentry can beat him huh? Well, since his power grows at least enough to at least match virtually anyone then isn't that a form of invincibility?
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#153

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:26 pm
‏Says the guy that uses pure speeds as a catch all beat all defence?

‏I don't think that goku could make up for the skills of 14 diffrent people one being the uber mimic. I could go into a rather detailed rant about how the Returners as a group would be too damn unpredictible for goku to deal with but i'll spare everone that.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#154

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:07 pm
‏See, though Goku's a quick dude, he's not the fastest. Technically his speed could be matched as could his power. See, that's the thing about Goku, he's not using a trick or ability to win. His power & speed are set in stone unlike Sentry apparently who has no true limit in power. BTW, the Ginyu Force had I believe 5 members each with a unique ability including time control I think so numbers are irrelevent & that "abilities of 14 different people" sounds like fusion to me. -_-
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#155

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:25 pm
‏Terra(Kingdom Hearts:Birth By Sleep character) could maybe beat Goku. He's alot stronger than Sora, from what I've seen. Just watch the KH:FM secret movie.
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#156

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:29 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Gow = crap. This is a fact. Assuming he lives to fight Kefka it means he stands a chance against him or could technically beat him. He certainly at least could play an equal role to the other FF6 characters in defeating Kefka. Kefka can beat Goku? Gow can beat Kefka? That means Gow can beat Goku? Ha.

‏You do realize that Kefka isn't one-on-one battling with the party members, right? Kefka is the final boss, so all four party members are going to be fighting him. Gau may get the finishing blow, but the victory would be given to all four party members.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#157

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:21 pm
‏TERRA. I'm waiting for someone to say something like, "Yeah right!" Noone? WOW
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#158

‏Post by Typhlame » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:54 pm

‏ Kevrosini wrote:
‏ Hell I'd own Goku, tank me up on Scotch WHISK and I could probably smash up Goku the "sissy" seriously, I'd grind that sucka into oblivion without breaking a wee sweat. He'd be reduced to ashes in like five seconds!!!

‏Lay off the hooch.
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#159

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:45 pm
‏Its not so much fusion as it is teamwork. Save for Gogo (A mime who could mimic the talents of multiple characters.) and Umrau ( A yetti with berzeker like tendancies and possible cryokinetic abilities.) each character had thier own ability that served as a strategic eliment. Granted the Player could use only use up to four people at any given time but 14 people taking on Kefka makes alot more sence then just four.

‏With abilities raging from animating portents drawn at mind blowing speeds (Relm) to the slot machien of death (Setzer) the talents had much variation in both style and terms of use. Along with each party member having his or her own skill, each was also given the ablity to use spells (save Umaru) via the Epser systems one of Squares better magic systems IMHO.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#160

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:08 am
‏My point remains. Gau could never touch Goku yet plays at least a 25% role (in a party of four) in killing Kefka who can supposedly kill Goku? That doesn't add up. Also, no one in their right mind will claim Gau can kill Goku or even lay a grubby finger on him...right? BTW, PK, I misunderstood what ya meant by the power of 14, I thought you meant fusion but you just meant their combined efforts.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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‏509 posts

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#161

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:56 am
‏Gau could have a 25% role in killing Goku. Gau wouldn't kill Goku on his own. But with three other party members, he could. Nobody said Gau vs. Goku. Kefka vs. Goku.

‏Kefka is stronger than Goku no matter what FFVI party member has a 25% role in killing him.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#162

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:08 pm
‏Simon Belmont.
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#163

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:15 pm
‏Gau can't LOOK at Goku -_-

‏Gau, f*ckin' up Goku that much? No sir. I may not have beat FF6 but I know enough to say 2 things about the game: It' a good FF & Gau is weak & stupid. Battles require strength & speed and a certain level of intelligence. Gau cannot teleport nor destroy a planet and his intelligence is pitiable. Yet he's got Goku breathing hard? Does Gau become some super warrior! or something? Because if he is how I remember him early in the game, then this is a ridiculous statement. Fine, Kefka wins but Jesus, Gau man?

‏BTW, could I ask what powers Belmont has? I barely touched Castlevania. If all he has is is that whip then he's a dead man.
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#164

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:23 pm
‏Heh wow we got you to admit that Kefka could win cool.

‏I never said that Gau could. In the SNES version, and possibly the PS remake if you equipe him right Gua becomes an out and out game breaker. This is because of a set up known as wind god Gau witch via use of an accery that lets him equip a weapon that has the secondary ablity of hitting all enimies on screen then using one of his rages to up the damge by I think it's 300 to 400% he's outright nasty.

‏As for his inteligence, while he may not be able to speak coharently you have to give the kid credit for living for 13 years on the one place in the game world where all the games monsters migrate to. If it doesn't take brainpower to serviver there as a teen ager much less a toddler I don't know what does.

‏On the subject of party members What about Relm her sket skill allows her to make a living duplicet of her opponet that's under her controll. Better yet Sabin his best blitz ability often tends to hit the game's damege cap of 9,999 on each use. Or Edger whith his tools one of witch can determin the weaknesses of Goku so the others can exploit them.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#165

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:23 pm
‏NVM PK has it.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#166

‏Post by Valigarmander » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:13 pm
‏Okay, I've postponed this long enough:

‏Image
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#167

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:17 pm
‏1. An instinct & moderate strength kept the lil doofus alive. 2. Can Relm duplicate Kefka? No. Nor can you petrify him. FF is about (cool) pansies who challenge a greater power & against all odds win. Their status moves never affect bosses. Goku has boss status, trust me. 3. What's Goku's HP? Trillions, easy I'd say. He's not from FF & has no FF limitations. Infact, you may have just slit your own throat here (for a nickle).4. Most Saiyans weakness is their tails but not Nappa & probably not Goku.

‏BTW, seeing pics is a bitch, what is that?

‏BTW, seeing pics is a bitch, what is that?
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#168

‏Post by Galefore » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:26 pm
‏^I doubt he'd have 'zomg trillyuns' of HP. That's fanboy speech. But he would easily have a final-battle level of health-points, most likely around 100,000.
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#169

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:58 pm
‏Quit pickin' on me, geez

‏Dude, by FF standards, trillions is low for Goku. I just forgot what comes next! :p Anyway, I beat FF1, 4, 9, 10, 10-2, Tactics and played most of the rest. They're awesome games but I also love DBZ. FF characters are usually weak as f*ck. Really, they're grandest feat of power is like f*ckin' up a town like in FF4. No comparison to universal destruction. However ridiculous DB may seem, the the big picture is grander in scope of power & what's at stake than most series dabble in. Fanboy? Yeah.
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#170

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:00 pm
‏Agreed. And IRHP, you were saying that Sephiroth could never beat Goku because on FF7 movie he was beat by someone that couldn't fly. Who cares? That doesn't matter. And you were saying that Sora defeated Sephiroth. Actually, even though you bring his HP down, Sephiroth is still not down. Sora merely survived against him. Then, it took Cloud. Then they both disappeared, so you don't know who won.
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#171

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:40 pm
‏Caterpie.
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#172

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:48 pm
‏1 Magicmaster a boss from FFVI who you can sucesfully use the berserk status effect on. Also you have the four faced queen of summoned monsters(FFIV) who you can beat by casting reflect on her this causes her curing spells to heal your party.
‏2 Relm can infact use her douplicate bosses with her sketch ability. Granted she can only get one attack out of any monster she uses but it's still a huge help.

‏-You stupid dog!
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#173

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:50 pm

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ Caterpie.

‏What level?
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#174

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:30 pm
‏Everyone who tried to find out what level he is died from the sheer power.
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#175

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:42 pm
‏Must have been one that Ash was sharking then.

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#176

‏Post by Wyborn » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:17 pm
‏Goku's default HP in Dragonball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3 is 40,000, if anyone cares.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ FF characters are usually weak as f*ck. Really, they're grandest feat of power is like f*ckin' up a town like in FF4.

‏Uh

‏Zeromus, the final villain in Final Fantasy 4, was capable of recreating the explosion that started the universe. He is capable of levels of destruction that beggar the imagination, even in DragonBall terms.
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#177

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:23 pm

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ Everyone who tried to find out what level he is died from the sheer power.

‏Wow, good God...he wins, hands down. Um, Wy, that game allows Master Roshi to own Goku. It's highly inaccurate. PK, can she copy Kefka's final form? Also, PK, I doubt Reflect counts as status. Besides, since not all bosses can be status induced, why should I believe Goku should be?
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#178

‏Post by Wyborn » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:30 pm
‏http://i28.tinypic.com/xxhdh.gif

‏In case you didn't see the addendum to my previous post, I'm going to reiterate that Zeromus is purdy bad.
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#179

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:44 pm
‏Wy, I beat FF4 as FF2 on a ROM, beat it on PS1 and SNES and I don't recall him having any such power you grant him...
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#180

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:02 pm
‏Yes she can, though like I said earlier she can only get one attack per use of sketch.

‏Reflect is a staus effect, a positive one but one none the less. so is vanish, Vanish while making you invonireble to physical attacks makes you a figritive sitting duck for spell including status effects spell and thus leading to the boss killing vanish doom/X-zone combo from both the SNES and PS versions. The vanish doom combo was taken out in the GBA version of the game.

‏As for Gau I don't think it was instinkt so much as it was adaptiblty and his rage skill that allows him to copy monster attacks show that he's inventiv enough to mimic what he sees to a ratherimpressive degree. For example when he mimics a M-Tech armor he can use it's techlaze ability, it's normal attack and it's metal knee move, he is also granted the float staus effect.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
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‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#181

‏Post by Wyborn » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:31 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Wy, I beat FF4 as FF2 on a ROM, beat it on PS1 and SNES and I don't recall him having any such power you grant him...

‏You fight him against the background of the universe exploding. His three best attacks are a meteor shower, Big Bang, and Black Hole.

‏What more do you need?
‏Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!

‏For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
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#182

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:33 pm
‏Proof that he can beat Goku.

‏Also: THIS TOPIC IS HI-TECHNICAAAAAAAAL
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#183

‏Post by Typhlame » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:50 pm
‏Apparently Mr. Rogers.

‏[video]w8ye4mYR878[/video]
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#184

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:50 am
‏Meteor showers proves nothing. Magus uses Blackhole also, so what? Big Bang? Vegeta ring a bell? It's just a name. Obviously it's not THE Big Bang, maybe A Big Bang. It had created no second universe or left any proof of association with the true Big Bang. The background is irrelevent, obviously the universe was unaltered. If the background is to be taken literally, it must be an alternate universe in which the actual battle takes place.

‏Also: A spoon does 9,999 damage to him. Goku beats Zeromus dude easy
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#185

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:03 pm
‏Remember, IRHP, you're no longer dealing with me, here. Wyborn will most certainly conjure up an argument better than anything you've seen yet, as he has had nerdish debates with the best of them. The Great Shadow of the Colossus War, anyone? That was hell.
‏SWORDLESS OCARINA OF TIME AND MORE GENERAL FLAILING AVAILABLE AT THIS FINE CHANNELHUB.
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#186

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:09 pm
‏Thanks for the warning, and I think there's an 80% chance I am gonna go down in flames.

‏Just not yet, certainly not via Zeromus.
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#187

‏Post by Wyborn » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:54 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Meteor showers proves nothing.

‏It does when it's the ultimate black magic and he uses it all the freaking time.

‏ Magus uses Blackhole also, so what?

‏Magus' is an eruption of matter that causes damage; Zeomus' is an actual gravity well that eats magic.

‏ Big Bang? Vegeta ring a bell?

‏Vegeta named his attack after the explosion that created the universe; Zeromus himself doesn't name any attacks, as he is mindless. There is a semantic difference here to start with, but there are more important and practical differences that are lent by context.

‏ It's just a name. Obviously it's not THE Big Bang, maybe A Big Bang. It had created no second universe or left any proof of association with the true Big Bang. The background is irrelevent, obviously the universe was unaltered. If the background is to be taken literally, it must be an alternate universe in which the actual battle takes place.

‏You've hit upon it. If the background is to be taken literally (and there's no reason not to, as it was literal in every other battle in the entire franchise, so it would be odd to ignore it just for this one fight) then what we are seeing is the creation of an entire universe forged from the fires of Zeromus' hatred. By sheer force of will he is recreating the birth of a universe, calling up a new reality out of the ether, born of his rage and shaped by his hatred and lust for violence. When he uses Big Bang and blasts the party mostly to smithereens (Cecil and Kain can take it but Rosa, Edge, and Rydia are another matter for most reasonably leveled parties) he is actually focusing the power of that explosion, which he created in the first place.

‏When Zeromus is defeated he falls into the ether, ultimately incinerated by his own fury, and everything falls back to normal, the party falling back to Zemus' throne room - but if they had not defeated him, Zeromus would have destroyed everything.

‏ Also: A spoon does 9,999 damage to him. Goku beats Zeromus dude easy

‏The Spoon does 9999 to anything and everything. It would do 9999 to Goku, too. That's just how it is.

‏Kefka and Zeromus would curb-stomp Goku.

‏Another character who would do the same is Giygas.
‏Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!

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#188

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:17 pm
‏Wy, just cause Zeromus uses Meteo still just proves nothing. Tellah used it, and yes he died but that's irrelevent.

‏Magus' black hole instantly sucks most things inside removing them completely to God knows where, vs just "causing damage".

‏Zeromus doesn't name attacks, sure, but still uses Meteo. Just cause he's oblivious to the fact that Meteo is just an attack called Meteo makes no diff. Same for Big Bang, just a name wether he named it or not.

‏9,999 spoon damage is FF restrictive.

‏Giygas is invincible, only prayer (maybe only Paula's prayer) allows him a defeat.
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#189

‏Post by Wyborn » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:24 pm
‏You're concentrating on names of attacks. Until you address the meat of my post concerning Zeromus we have nothing more to discuss on that front.

‏True. To Goku it would do 99,999, the max allowed in DBZBT3 - which is more health than he can ever have on his own, natch. If you want to use the "game restrictive" logic.

‏Granted, Giygas is essentially unbeatable by other characters.

‏Ness would also curbstomp Goku, though for different reasons. He's arguably the most powerful fictional character in history.
‏Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!

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#190

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:28 pm
‏Though I never got a chance to finish my playthrough of an Earthbound rom from what I gather Prayer in use of the final battle must be used eight times so that all the people that Ness and the others saved can contribute thier prayers to the attack. Basicly its like a spirt bomb though only working off the enrgy of people not that of both the people and the planet itself. so no it wasn't just Paula that was making the attack effectiv it was the entire populas of the world itself.

‏You've also yet to respond to my lastest defence of Gau's inteligence.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#191

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:51 pm
‏I'll get you, PK in my next post

‏Okay, let us say it is a true Big Bang. Great. Explain scientifically why his death would revert what is done since the true Big Bang theory is what it is based on.

‏FF6's core is a game. DBZ is manga, so they should be restricted & compared according to their origins as fairly as possible. Should Yugioh's Trap Hole kill Goku?

‏Ness beating Goku? No sir, I love EB & Ness & beat the game a dozen times, I see no great proof of power there. Afterall, he and Jeff played equal roles in the Giygas fight.
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#192

‏Post by Wyborn » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:57 pm
‏My next post will go up in a few hours.
‏Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!

‏For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
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#193

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:17 pm
‏PK, it is more likely that, rather than just having that ability born in, Gau learned it early in some way. Maybe he's special and always had that power but he, like virtually all living creatures must have instinct and it obviously dominated him, instead of intelligence.

‏Also, I see the Spirit Bomb comparison but Spirit Bomb can vary in damage varying on how much Goku takes from life. Prayer showed variation for different reasons. Also, only Giygas ever took such damage from Prayer.
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#194

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:37 pm
‏I'm still hesitent to call in an instinct. While I agree that there are some behavers that all humans share, Like the drive to live and the drive to reproduce.

‏I don't think it was entirly instinct that kept Gau alive. look at the conversation he has with Sabin and Cyan when they give him the dried meat. After he made fun made fun of cyan's mode of speech and was shouted down for it by Sabin ( who only implies what happened to Cyan's family) gau immedatly grapss the concept that he had hurt someone's feelings and asks to be forgiven.

‏Then as gratitude for giving him some food he laeds them to a devince that allows for them to travel under water. A device he took because it was shiney. Granted he probly didn't know what it was but he knew it had value to it as he reacts defenicvly when Sabin brings up the subject of Locke being jelus of Gau's treasure.

‏Look at the concepts that he can grasp with only minimel inneraction with humans, not to mention the degree of speech that he has also from said lack of human inneraction. Empathy, sorrow, graitude, joy, protection of persanle property. Granted some of these concpts come naturly but not all of them. Also when looking at case of real life farel children if they don't learn how to speak and interact with real humans by about age 12 they never will, yet Gau a thirteen year old has a rough grasp of interpersnal cominication and manners. This is far above par for the course in this kind of situation.

‏As for prayer I'll leave that to Wyborn as I've not played enough of Earthbound to adiquitly defend it.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#195

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:15 pm
‏well sure the dude is capable of the basics but he'd be considered legally retarded by virtually any standards.
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#196

‏Post by Kil'jaeden » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:31 pm
‏I know, Death, the second to last boss in Castlvania 3 would beat Goku. Do you have any idea how hard he is to beat?
‏The man who is blind, deaf,and silent lives in peace.
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#197

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:41 pm
‏TERRA TERRA TERRA
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#198

‏Post by Deepfake » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:52 pm

‏ Wyborn wrote:
‏ The Phoenix's self-destructive psychosis means it wouldn't be able to finish that fight. After butting heads with Galactus, it realizes the danger of using its own powers and wouldn't expend the energy necessary to fight Goku - even past that point, it's not clear that the Phoenix would be able to win (really).

‏Loophole being that the Phoenix wouldn't fight him? Not really an argument when we are supposing the outcome if she did.

‏ Nate Grey can't attack him on the astral plan, have of the fighting Goku does throughout the series uses his soul as the medium for combat.

‏I don't follow you on that, he doesn't have any telepathic ability and would be easily subsceptible to telepathic suggestion.

‏ Onslaught couldn't take the Hulk. That's not a fight.

‏Just because Marvel wrote it so Onslaught did not choose to annihilate the Hulk doesn't discount him, it just means Marvel blanched at the concept of killing the Hulk.

‏ Goku's basically immune to mind control - it's come up a lot in DragonBall. Repeatedly.

‏What sort? How strong is his mind? It's synonymous with his stomach and "lol yur bad u shouldnt hurt ppl."

‏No one's making any arguments against Raistlin, although there's not really any argument to be had. He can time travel, he can kill gods. Goku would have to kill an actual god to be on his level.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#199

‏Post by Wyborn » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:42 am

‏ Serial Miller wrote:
‏ Loophole being that the Phoenix wouldn't fight him? Not really an argument when we are supposing the outcome if she did.

‏The Phoenix Force doesn't actually have a gender - but even if it did fight Goku, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't win.

‏ I don't follow you on that, he doesn't have any telepathic ability and would be easily subsceptible to telepathic suggestion.

‏Goku spends something like half the series dead. His mental focus and discipline is so great that he retains corporeality even when reduced to nothing but his soul. He fights constantly in the afterlife. Attacking him on the astral plane, where he would be limited to how much power comes from his will, is tantamount to suicide.

‏ Just because Marvel wrote it so Onslaught did not choose to annihilate the Hulk doesn't discount him, it just means Marvel blanched at the concept of killing the Hulk.

‏It would be one thing if Onslaught had merely failed to kill the Hulk; it is another that the Hulk attacked him and tore him to shreds, rendering him without physical form. Onslaught is not as powerful as the Hulk - he just had the added advantage of not being susceptible to being punched after his physical body was destroyed. He does not have that same luxury against someone who is capable of killing beings made of pure energy.

‏ What sort? How strong is his mind? It's synonymous with his stomach and "lol yur bad u shouldnt hurt ppl."

‏You know

‏I'm not actually sure

‏I'd have to look it up

‏But his ability to resist mind control in the series is based primarily on willpower - through sheer force of will he can resist actual chemical changes being made to his brain. That's how mind strength works in DragonBall - willpower. And Goku's got more than God (literally, in the context of the series).

‏ No one's making any arguments against Raistlin, although there's not really any argument to be had. He can time travel, he can kill gods. Goku would have to kill an actual god to be on his level.

‏I take it you don't watch/read much DragonBall

‏There are different tiers of gods in DragonBall - planetary guardians, gods of single worlds who are called Kami. Above them is the gatekeeper of the afterlife, Enma Daio, god of life and death. Above him are the celestial gods, the Kai, each of whom rule over one of the four galaxies - North, South, East, and West. Above them are the Kaioshin, a set of gods who rule over the entire universe and protect it from universal-level threats. Above them is the Supreme Kai, the one ruler of the entire universe, and above even him is the Old Kai, the most powerful god to ever exist.

‏Goku, by the end of the series, is more powerful than all of them put together.
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#200

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:11 am
‏While I'll admit that he's incredibly undereducated that doesn't mean he can't learn anything. I think that i'ver argued his mental and physical ability enough to say that he in unisen with others can make a reasnable den't in Kefka's health.

‏As you have already admitted that Kefka can beat Goku I see no need to continue that debate.

‏Giygas, from what I've read about him is definatly capeible of beating Goku. The way I understand him is that he is soem sort of cosmic horror like you would find in one of H.P. Lovecraft's works. his mear presense is causes things to go berserk, and not just animels and people mind you. His sheer rage has been noted to animate both dead orgaic beings like zombies, along with inanimet objects like stopsigns, cups of coffie and taxi cabs.

‏Then we have the intresting issue of the fight between ness' group and Giygas. While its possible to cause physcial harm to Giyas it doesn't really affect him it is instead the pray ability that finishes him off. Pray being a tpe of spirtiual attack that grows in power the more people add thier own strength to it and it is only when the entire populas of Earth join thier enrgy with that of the hero's that Giygas is defeated. this is where goku falls short here. He has the strength of body to keep Giygas at bay, but could he gather the strength of spirt to defeat him? If I recall right the only reason the people of earth gave there enrgy to goku's sprit bomb en mas was because hercule used his ill gotten charsima to convince them to help.

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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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… 11 …

#201

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:24 am
‏PK, Goku may take energy at will but wanted it to be the earthlings choice to forfeit energy.

‏Also, Miller, Goku has his own telepathic powers. He can speak telepathically to others.

‏I know nothing of Belmont but if he's just Indiana Jones then him & anyone he's associated with is weak.

‏Giygas can only die via prayer, he's invincible.

‏As far as Gau goes, he could learn but the debate is "as is".
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#202

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:36 pm
‏I always found that Gua's ability to learn made him rather intresting after all he learns how to re create the attacks of monsters through simple observation, He learns how to act properly around people because of his time with the returners. In the second half of the Game you can take part in a sidequest to reunite Gua with his father. at the end of the sidequest Gau displays a level of emotinal maturity and understanding that I don't see in most people my own age in real life.

‏Giygas is still fair game as if there's anybody other then Paula who could pull off the prayer ability it's goku and his spirt bomb. Though given the time it takes for said bomb to be formed he would most likely be dead before he could complete it.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#203

‏Post by heh » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:06 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:

‏ BTW, could I ask what powers Belmont has? I barely touched Castlevania. If all he has is is that whip then he's a dead man.

‏Dude, Simon has the power of Pure badass. He would just whip him to death and goku wouldn't know what the **** and then he would be like OH GOD I WAS WHIPPED TO DEATH.
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#204

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:38 pm
‏TERRA TERRA TERRA
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#205

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:06 pm
‏Speed three things.
‏1 QUIT SHOUTING!
‏2 Repeting the name isn't going to help your case any.
‏3 Provide some evidence.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#206

‏Post by The Willful Wanderer » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:19 pm
‏Quantification.

‏Please clarify term: Strength.

‏Please clarify term: Stronger.

‏Please clarify conditions: Are efficiency and planning issues in any way? Are we assuming a completley blank combat field? Are we assuming both sides fully rested? Are we accepting only single opponents? What basis are we using to determine said strengths- real-word equivalents or numbers/quantifications from games/anime or something else entirely? Is someone getting the drop? Are we assuming typical starting positions prior to any fight? Are we assuming typical attitudes regarding the conflict?

‏Until you answer all of this, any argument is moot.
‏\"What if nothing means anything? What if nothing really matters?.....
‏...Or suppose EVERYTHING matters. Which would be worse?\"
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#207

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:41 pm
‏way to ruin the thread
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#208

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:44 pm
‏My argument for Superman and why he shouldn't be disqualified-
‏Yes, he has tons of powers ,but if you look,I mean really look you'll realize that his powers aren't as strong as other character's powers who have only that power.
‏Ex.
‏The flash can move (not only run,but move) much much MUUCH faster than Superman.
‏(no exact numbers,sorry)
‏Also,ANYONE with invulnerability that isn't from Krypton isn't affected by any form of Kryptonite.
‏Almost anyone who has nothing but super strength IS stronger than him.
------
‏Also,I'd like to say that he(Superman) isn't COMPLETELY invulnerable.
‏He is vulerable to:
‏every kind of kryptonite
‏red,black,silver,blue,and the ever popular green.
‏He's vulnerable to weaponry made of metals from krypton.
------
‏So there it is.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#209

‏Post by The Willful Wanderer » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:32 am

‏ Chunky Kong12345 wrote:
‏ way to ruin the thread

‏That job was done about five pages ago. Try again.
‏\"What if nothing means anything? What if nothing really matters?.....
‏...Or suppose EVERYTHING matters. Which would be worse?\"
‏-Calvin

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#210

‏Post by Deepfake » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:37 am

‏ Wyborn wrote:
‏ I take it you don't watch/read much DragonBall

‏ There are different tiers of gods in DragonBall - planetary guardians, gods of single worlds who are called Kami. Above them is the gatekeeper of the afterlife, Enma Daio, god of life and death. Above him are the celestial gods, the Kai, each of whom rule over one of the four galaxies - North, South, East, and West. Above them are the Kaioshin, a set of gods who rule over the entire universe and protect it from universal-level threats. Above them is the Supreme Kai, the one ruler of the entire universe, and above even him is the Old Kai, the most powerful god to ever exist.

‏ Goku, by the end of the series, is more powerful than all of them put together.

‏The Kai rulers are pretty much just rulers, though. If they were truly creation gods, they would have immediately superceeded the power of any mortal they created. That argument's moot, though, since of course the DBZ and DBGT writers would just make Goku workout until he could destroy god by merging with unreality or some other intense BS.

‏I still say the Phoenix could kick Goku's ass on principle of being able to manipulate time streams. I call it a "she" because I associate it with its common host, Jean Grey.

‏You've obviously payed more attention to the Onslaught series than I did, but I don't think Onslaught being defeated in a fight against the Hulk could possibly rule him out. Goku hasn't ever encountered something like the ability to control ionized atoms before, and he's never dealt with the Phoenix's molecular fire.

‏On top of all of this, all of the telepaths he's resisted have never been powerful enough to physicially manifest their telepathic powers. A real first-order telepath would trounce him; provided the DBZ writers aren't in charge of how it comes out. The DBZ writers contradict themselves just to accomodate the flow of the storyline. For instance - the combatants are said to travel near or above the speed of light. Yet they're still talking the whole goddamn time. The speed of sound is much lower. Also, every time they exceed the speed of sound they should emit a sonic boom, but they don't - they're not even travelling faster than sound, if they don't.
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#211

‏Post by Galefore » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:27 am
‏Eh. Seems we've beat the **** out of this possibly dead horse, but now Selene has come to possibly tear a new one open. Perhaps there is hope?

‏No.
‏SWORDLESS OCARINA OF TIME AND MORE GENERAL FLAILING AVAILABLE AT THIS FINE CHANNELHUB.
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#212

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:22 am
‏It's all fantasy, so the whole speed of sound/light thing is just at best, poor writi

‏Miller, you are not bringing up reasons why Goku can't beat, say, Phoenix besides that Goku never faced its super duper fire.

‏Hulk's main (only?) power is being a slow and powerful dude. By powerful I mean, compared to people. He can't fly, he's slow and stupid. If he stands up to Onslaught, then Goku can easily beat them, cause he is fast, intelligent and powerful.

‏Sarai, you want conditions to be set? Then I'll post some and we'll see how it goes.

‏We can judge power by what a character has done or is known to be capable of doing. What defines physical strength? Example, Spidey can lift a 200 pound man. Orphan Annie can pick up a cute kitty. Spidey is physically stronger than Annie.

‏Other powers are to harder to gauge, like psychic power. Ness' psychic powers can stand up against Giygas, only defeatable through Paula's prayers while Master Roshi can perform hypnosis. I am sure Ness' powers are greater than Roshi's.

‏In my next post I'll cover more.

‏1. There is no planning, they just know (somehow) that they are to fight.

‏2. Imagine the Hyperbolic Time Chamber without 10X gravity, the battlefield is just like that (unless a problem arises in this topic forcing a change).

‏3. Yes, they're rested.

‏4. Yes, its 1-on-1

‏5. We compare the combatants according to origin (Mega Man was first a game.) and the battle, unless otherwise needed, is based on real world physics (we gotta guess about, for example, Ki).

‏6. Positions are, uh, a football field apart?
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#213

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:43 am

‏ Hulk's main (only?) power is being a slow and powerful dude. By powerful I mean, compared to people. He can't fly, he's slow and stupid. If he stands up to Onslaught, then Goku can easily beat them, cause he is fast, intelligent and powerful.

‏Green Scar Hulk/The World Breaker/War Hulk/King Hulk

‏image-http://powet.tv/wordpress/wp-content/up ... e_crop.jpg
‏The hulk also has the ability to jump for miles. (high and far)
‏Regeneration.
‏and if you do research then you'll find the other (more intEligAeNt(
‏vershinz.
‏PS: wiki is just the easiest one to use.
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#214

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:31 am
‏But can't I, ya know, just be lazy & let others present their evidence? =D
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#215

‏Post by Deepfake » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:36 am
‏One of the reasons why "the Hulk beat him" logic doesn't really work is best explained like this:

‏Piccolo killed Goku. Goku is weaker than Piccolo. Anyone that can beat Piccolo can beat Goku.
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#216

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:09 am
‏Ryu from Street Fighter probably could win.

‏No, seriously.
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#217

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:29 am
‏Piccolo didn't kill Goku, he basically commited suicide by sacrificing himself to kill Raditz.

‏Also that point in time was drastically different for Goku's strength, he didn't even know Kaioken at that point! So your pont is really out of context.

‏Ryu could beat Hercule or Chi-Chi or probably Videl but that's it really. Goku would annihilate Ryu.
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#218

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:25 am
‏lol proof.
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#219

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:39 am
‏Proof? Well, dude has trouble destroying a car, Balrog, just some boxer can go toe to toe with Ryu, he can't fly and he is slow. Proof is in the pudding...
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#220

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:46 am
‏Which is why he would so win.
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#221

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:58 am

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ Which is why he would so win.

‏Because he is basically a weak, slow fighter without any special abilities...? =p
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#222

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:04 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Because he is basically a weak, slow fighter without any special abilities...? =p

‏You need to brush up on your Street Fighter knowledge, because he's the exact opposite.
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#223

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:18 pm
‏In SF2 dude can't bust up a car very easy and his Hadoken barely dents it. Kamehameha would leave nothing left. And Hadoken is like his only distinct attack while Goku can fly and use Solar Flare and such. No, Ryu would lose, unless you can prove otherwise.
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#224

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:32 pm
‏You just proved how Ryu would win.
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#225

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:35 pm
‏Ryu = Dead

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ You just proved how Ryu would win.

...
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#226

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:42 pm
‏Why exactly are you using a Street Fighter II bonus round to try to prove why Ryu wouldn't win? He's not fighting a car, he's fighting anoher person. Anoher person with incredible power, yes, but still.
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#227

‏Post by X-3 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:42 pm
‏Satsui no Hadou? Depends on whether Ryu would give in and use it.

‏Also, I'm just throwing this out here: the Lich King, or the plotting shaman formerly known as Ner'zhul. I think he could have a chance against Goku. He is damned powerful now, and can pretty much mind **** people by placing them in extraordinarily difficult situations. Like Arthas and Stratholme.
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#228

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:44 pm

‏ VWF_champion wrote:
‏ Why exactly are you using a Street Fighter II bonus round to try to prove why Ryu wouldn't win? He's not fighting a car, he's fighting anoher person. Anoher person with incredible power, yes, but still.

‏Especially since because it's a game, the developers had to make it so that there was some sort of challenge. Or else there would be no point in playing at all.
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#229

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:46 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
...

‏See?

‏He admits teh truth.

‏I winz.
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#230

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:56 pm
‏The car thing is gameplay and should be included but aside from that he displays a lack of speed even compared to his SF opponents. I mean, even Chun-Li's attacks are faster as displayed by her barrage of kicks. Hell, even Honda hits faster. And Zangief jumps higher.

‏And, by the "Setsui no Hadou" thing, do you mean the big Kamehameha thing he used that destroyed that building in that Street Fighter movie? The one where 2 random punks mess Ryu up with beer bottles...?
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#231

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:59 pm
‏You see what you just said?

‏You have proved Ryu would win.

‏No taking it back.
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#232

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:00 pm
‏Lol, Taz, ya broke me down. =p

‏Hey, X3, can you post a lil info on, like, all those dudes you mentionee?
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#233

‏Post by X-3 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:07 pm
‏Lich King - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

‏That's something on him. I think he has a fair chance on Goku: though, that depends on whether the sayian would succumb to his mind ****. Would he fall into the king's laid traps? Would he listen to the king's voice inside his head?

‏Also, the Lich King seems to be very intelligent.
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#234

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:12 pm
‏I'm just messin with ya' now.

‏At least I know that if I try that Argument on a meeny flamer, I'll have him running in leteral circles. :p

‏I still say you're trying to make Goku look so cool.
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#235

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:23 pm
‏I'll check out that Lich dude.

‏Oh, and Taz. With his leather jacket from Budokai, I don't have to try to make him look cool. =D
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#236

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:37 pm
‏Heh I guess I win the Gau and Giygas arguments as you seemed to have forgot about them. =P

‏Also doesn't Ryu have some kind of super powered evil side that he's keeping in check? Or am I thinking of that Akumo guy?

‏- You stupid dog!
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#237

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:09 pm
‏Lol, PK! I didn't forget ya, I just get caught up in certain arguments.

‏1. Gau's emotional display has little to do with actual advanced intelligence like most other characters.

‏2. Giygas is only defeatable by, I believe Paula's Prayer. Buzz Buzz said 4 specific people would defeat Giygas. Paula prayed, not anyone else meaning her prayer was special. Spirit Bomb is close but doesn't require belief in a cause or even permission from anyone it takes energy from

‏3. Ryu has some supressed super powered evil
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#238

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:10 pm
‏^^ Both of them have it, I think.
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#239

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:15 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:

‏ Oh, and Taz. With his leather jacket from Budokai, I don't have to try to make him look cool. =D

‏....damn, good point.

‏Also, I guess I can't think of any characters to beat Goku. Probably because I'm a DBZ Fanboy. >_>
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#240

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:22 pm
‏Well, Goku hates needles. Maybe Injection Fairy Lily could scare him into forfeit.
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#241

‏Post by heh » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:35 pm
‏Soma Cruz. Aria of Sorrow incarnation. Claimh Solais. Lightning Doll Soul. HeadHunter Soul. Alura Une Soul. Chaos Ring. Eversing. Final Destination.
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#242

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:40 pm
‏Pincushin man!

‏Okay that was a joke but still the guy has alot of needles.

‏1 You forgot his obserd ablity to analize an recreat monster ablities.
‏2 If I recall my psychology properly emotinal growth affects perception it is also used in devuloping personality and to a lesser extent inteligence as some people can't think properly while dealing with high inesity emotions and aside from his analitical skill that's other part of his power the skill is called "Rage" for a reason.

‏Buzz Buzz said that for people would defeat Giygas, but if that's true what use did the soundsounds have then? While Ness, Feff, Paula, and Poo were the ones fighting Giygas it was the prayers of both Paula and the world at large meaning all the people that Ness and the others helped that really Beat Giygas as Pyhshical ablitly can only keep Giygas at bay. Really what Ness, Jeff, and Poo were doing was buying time for the prayers of Paula and the world at large to deal the final blows.

‏So unless I'm istaken if Goku were to create a spirt bomb that was powered by the bleif of those who had had saved it could defeat Giygas.

‏I admit I don't know alot about Earthbound that's why I'm kinda just keeping this argument alive untill someone who has far better knowlege of the game desides to pick it up.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#243

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:40 pm
‏PK, Prayer was channeled by Paula. Not Ness. Why? It had to be her. Goku could probably fend off Giygas for a longtime but never finish him.

‏Honestly PK, would you truely describe Gau as intelligent? Even if I gave him an undeserved average intelligence or one equal to Goku's he still has less varied and life experiences. His combat ability is notable and unique but copying abilities shows great observational skills but not intelligence.

‏To That Guy, what's that list about?
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#244

‏Post by X-3 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 pm
‏^He's listing ways Soma could beat Goku.

‏Soma's soul abilities give him a great hand over Goku.
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#245

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:22 pm
‏Yes I think that he's around averge inteligence. Given how we're using the source materail as evidence for these debates and it's in game cannon that Gau is inteligent we have to use that. If I rember the little intro blurbe about him the last party roughly says that " His eyes shine with inteligence."

‏I'm mearly trying to enforce what the writers of the story have already given us via use of what I can recall from psychoology class and in game evidence. Emotinal growth and understanding is a key part of both a well adjusted mind and a well adjusted person. given that he can adapte to situations with not much issue, apply his growing emotinal understanding and his expanding socail interaction and expernce, along with his beyond keen observatinal skill then yes he has the makings of a well adjusted and inteligent person. he also has a will to survive that's quite impressive and a die hard loylaty to those he considers friends I see no reason to to call him an inteligent person a master intalect no but quite impressive give the way he had to grow up.

‏As for Giygas I'll leave that argument to someone who can better defent it.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#246

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:23 pm
‏TG, define the abilities listed and physical strength of said character.

‏Good defense for Gau but his intelligence is obviously, in game material proves this, that he can't interpret friend from foe. He was afraid of Sabin, a person.
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#247

‏Post by The Willful Wanderer » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:24 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:

‏ 5. We compare the combatants according to origin (Mega Man was first a game.)...

‏What does this even mean? It needs explanation.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Piccolo didn't kill Goku, he basically commited suicide by sacrificing himself to kill Raditz.

‏ Also that point in time was drastically different for Goku's strength, he didn't even know Kaioken at that point! So your pont is really out of context.

‏No, that *is* his point. You're saying that because person a once beat person b, anyone who can beat person a can beat person b. By similar logic, one could say that in rock-paper-scissors, since paper beats rock, and scissors beats paper, scissors must also beat rock. Which happens to be wrong, and things can happen like that in nearly any comparison that's not raw mathematics. Since fights aren't raw mathematics....
‏\"What if nothing means anything? What if nothing really matters?.....
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#248

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:34 pm
‏True on his first few meeting with Sabin and Cyan he was afraid of them, however he only approched them out of curosity he was wondering how two people could survive jumping over baron falls. After the dried meet insodent he however sees them and the rest of the returners as friends and is loyal to them.

‏You say that we use the origens of the characters as primary evidence well the game says that he is inteligent and given how we are using cannon we have to accepte what the game tells us. While he may not have alot of pratce interacting with people it is clear that he is averge inteligence maybe a bit higher with potental to learn alot more.

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#249

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:18 pm
‏Hm, you used my rules against me...a valiant effort but it says his eyes reflect intelligence right? Well, I assume it means average intelligent, at the most since many of his actions are highly questionable such as what you pointed out. He doesn't understand value of items. I forgot which item he had in his possession.
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#250

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:23 pm
‏He had a tonic and the scuba like helmit hidden away at the cave, he never really said the tonic was his treasure he just gave it to Sabin. As for the helimt he took it because it looked shiney and considering how gold ( or gil) is the main currence you have to say he was in the ballpark there.
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#251

‏Post by Deepfake » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:51 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ So your pont is really out of context.

‏And yours isn't?

‏****, son. Lead isn't that dense.
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#252

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:57 am
‏...damn, this topic is still going on?
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#253

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:48 pm
‏Sarai, maybe I misunderstood your question. I believe you asked, by what are the characters are compared and I said by their what they come from. Like how spike pits kill Mega Man. Maybe realisticly they shouldn't but the game states they do. This is why Wyborn's arguments pertaining to Budokai are void. Otherwise ChiChi could beat Goku.

‏So, since Hulk beat Onslaught doesn't mean Goku can beat him? Okay, then tell me, what's Hulk got (that helped him beat Onslaught) that Goku doesn't and prove it.
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#254

‏Post by Blake » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:55 pm
‏Man I wish I could contribute more, but I've mentally exhausted myself at about page 8 or 9. :p
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#255

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:36 pm

‏ Blake wrote:
‏ Man I wish I could contribute more, but I've mentally exhausted myself at about page 8 or 9. :p

‏I'm not going to bother. This debate is like the Special Olympics - even if you win, at the end of the day, you're still retarded.
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#256

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:43 pm
‏I thought we were still talking about fictional characters...

‏Mentally and physically challenged, ZG...way to be PC. :p

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ So, since Hulk beat Onslaught doesn't mean Goku can beat him? Okay, then tell me, what's Hulk got (that helped him beat Onslaught) that Goku doesn't and prove it.

‏Yeah, prove it :mad:

‏...I would pay Dai Grepher to show up right now.
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#257

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:48 pm

‏ Mentally and physically challenged, ZG...way to be PC. Image

‏:p I know, I broke my own cardinal rule about that...and after wasting my life reading this topic, I couldn't even care less.
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#258

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:21 pm
‏I still don't know how this got 13 pages, it's insane. XD
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
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#259

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:27 pm
‏Super human stubberness on multiple sides. That and I just like to have a good nerd fight now and then.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#260

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:35 am
‏Why not just lock the topic? We've totally veered off subject here, and it might be hard to get back on in a short period of time.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#261

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:34 am

‏Okay, point is, Goku has been beaten previously. He's died repeatedly (and should've stayed that way, but whatcha gonna do).

‏Goku got stronger. Cell won't be able to beat new-Goku. Piccolo will not be strong enough to kill new-Goku.

‏Now, I'm not saying that we magically need to make someone like Onslaught stronger, per se, but just because he didn't beat the Hulk in one fight doesn't mean that's the be-all and end-all of Onslaught's powers.

‏As Selene/Sarai tried explaining- Scissors beat Paper. That doesn't automatically mean Rock will also beat Paper; quite the opposite. Paper beats Rock, even though Paper just lost the fight to Scissors.

‏A single battle against one foe does not determine a character's overall and infinite power. Given a new fight, against someone else, the outcome can and will likely be different.

‏Do you see the point? Hulk winning against Onslaught doesn't automatically mean Goku also winning against Onslaught, not on that single basis. Just the same as ONCE Piccolo was able to kill Goku, but that doesn't mean Piccolo will ALWAYS be able to kill Goku.

‏One fight against one person does not determine the outcome of every subsequent fight.
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#262

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:53 am

‏ PSYCHOKID909 wrote:
‏ Super human stubberness on multiple sides. That and I just like to have a good nerd fight now and then.

‏ - You stupid dog!

‏Exactly. I'm just having some fun, albeit being a bit serious. People, some people, are acting like this topic has meaning, negative or positive. It doesn't, its a harmless nonimpacting game/debate

‏Saria, your point was eloquently spoken & valid but didn't answer my question. What did Hulk have that allowed him to defeat Onslaught that Goku doesn't?
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#263

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:32 am

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ TG, define the abilities listed and physical strength of said character.

‏ Good defense for Gau but his intelligence is obviously, in game material proves this, that he can't interpret friend from foe. He was afraid of Sabin, a person.

‏Mmmm.

‏Soma can absorb the souls of his enemys and use them to gain various abilitys. He also absorbs the power of Dracula himself, who in castlevania can basically command every evil thing in the world. The Claimh Solais is the best sword in the game because its retardedly powerful, boosts all his stats a retarded amount, is retardly huge yet retardedly fast, and hits with the retardly overpowered holy element. The Eversing is a retardedly powerful piece of armor, the chaos ring boosts his stats and give him infinate MP, the Lightning doll soul is a retardedly powerful bolt of lightning ability which is instant traveling, does huge damage, and this like 3 times for electric damage. Alura Une Soul Rapidly restores his health in exchange for his (Infinate due to the chaos Ring) MP, and the Headhunter soul boosts his stats for EVERY. SINGLE. SOUL. SOMA. HAS. Theres like 150 something enemys in the game and you can have 9 of each of there souls.

‏In other words, Soma can one shot Goku.
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#264

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:11 pm
‏Oh yeah, Soma probably could.

‏TERRA TERRA TERRA
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#265

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:11 pm
‏So Soma's Ininite Health would count as a form of Invincibility right?

‏Besides, that sword can affect Goku why?
‏Trunks attacked Goku with everything he had and Goku blocked it with his finger and a smirk. How much better can Soma do...?

‏That Lightning wouldn't phase Goku. Even as a KID Roshi's electric attack didn't hurt him why would his SSj4 form even squint at his electric attack? I forgot the attack name and voltage but I can probably find it if to compare the attacks.
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#266

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:16 pm
‏TERRA TERRA TERRA

‏WOW!! Still, noone has said, "Yeah, right!"
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#267

‏Post by Galefore » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:21 pm
‏^^Dude. You make things ****ing impossible. Stop pulling the "OH BUT THERE'S A LOOPHOLE IF HE CAN POSSIBLY BE INVINCIBLE AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER" argument. Although it has its validities, it sort of comes off as "You just sat there and typed a huge argument, but I'll attack it with rules. GENIUS!"

‏Also, the sword thing? Yeah, there are stronger sword-wielders than Trunks. That argument is annoying. You don't have to use it every time somebody says "Sword", because for ****'s sake, maybe there's a guy or two who could tar-and-feather Goku with the blade.

‏Also, Goku is not ****ing invincible to Lightning. REAL Lightning is several-hundred times hotter than the sun, which I'm pretty sure Goku could never just fly up to and endure, and if an attacker had the ability to manipulate electricity on a molecular level he would even have the ability to electrically manipulate Goku's neurons, a form of psychic-energy-free mind control. So even if Goku has more will than God, psychology cannot trump sheer physical take-over.
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#268

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:04 pm
‏One up slasemen, would you kindly quite shouting? It's getting rather annoying also either drop the argument or provode some evidence thank you.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#269

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:32 pm
‏Alright. I'm going to have to wait for evidence until KH:Birth By Sleep comes out
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#270

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:39 pm
‏Thank you, now we just wait for IRHP to counter all of our evidence then the endless cycle that is a nerd fight can continue.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
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#271

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:32 pm

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ REAL Lightning is several-hundred times hotter than the sun,

‏Actually ,it's tens (or possibly hundreds I don't remember) of thousands of times hotter than the surface of the sun,but good point. :p
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#272

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:36 pm
‏^^^I thought you were talking about FFVI Terra for a while.

‏Yeah, saying that a character is stronger than someone when you don't know anything about him/her is bad.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#273

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:27 pm
‏Nerd War

‏Sure, someone could tear up Trunks I bet. But he's still powerful and Goku blocked his blade with his finger. So tell me, if a badass like SSj Trunks can't give SSj(1) a paper cut with a sword, then what GOD-LIKE bastard can tar-and-feather SSj4 Goku? Dude, you can't just say "NU-UH, GOKU IS SO NOT THAT ****ING STRONG!" and tell me this Soma can kill Goku just "'cause" without proof or similar circumstances.

‏Oh, and I'll do the appropriate research on Master Roshi's electric attack to rub in your face.
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#274

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:37 pm
‏Topic: How to make your character cooler than everyone else.

‏1. Make a "My favorite Character: who can beat him?

‏2. Cut out everyone who could stand a chance against him by claiming they all have a form of invulnerability

‏3. Use every example from your character's cartoon to beat everyone (AKA if he faced a swordsman, use that scene as evidence to show he can beat all swordsmen ever)

‏4. If the opposing character ever lost, use it to proove said character could never beat your character because he lost at some point.

‏5. Ignore everyone who catches on to your ploy by saying they haven't answered your question.

‏6. After 25 pages, declare your favorite character the best one in all existence and that you are the best arguer, and force everyone to agree with you by showing this topic as evidence.

‏Thank you, Good night.
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#275

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:02 pm
‏:mad: Okay,then since goku's so wak-didy awesome then he's disqualified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

‏Naw but seriously he does lose. :p

‏Any way I guess my argument for Superman a few pages back worked because noone has argued yet.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#276

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:33 pm
‏Topic: How to be kinda right but STILL provide no proof of victory

‏1. Make a bitchy, albeit funny list of found faults in a topic taken too seriously

‏2. Make no valid points.

‏GM, you said Super Man can only be killed by dudes from planets with a red sun and rainbow variants of kryptonite. That should disqualify him but ya know what? Even if he's not, the dude is slow. Faster than a train? SLOW. Man of Steel? If literal, Goku could chew him up.
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#277

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:35 pm
‏proof?

‏This TOPIC is proof.

‏We see right through you man. Right through you.
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#278

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:36 pm
‏Man, I barely thank posts and I've already thanked Tazy twice this week. :lol:
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#279

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:48 pm

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ proof?

‏ This TOPIC is proof.

‏ We see right through you man. Right through you.

‏Taz, I would hate you if ya weren't funny.

‏Let's say in the Super Man movie Supes gets shot and it bounces off him or he is unaffected by drowning or something. I couldn't refrence that to say that Arqua from DBZ couldn't drown him? Why not...?
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#280

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:00 pm
‏But you do.

‏Just now you said Soma couldn't beat Goku because he uses a sword, and used the fight with Trunks as evidence.

‏And you know you put that invulnerability rule just so you could rule out anyone who stood a tiny chance against Goku.

‏Arguments like this don't have these sorts of rules, you just let the fur fly, which is why I'm sure of myself when I say that this argument is rigged.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#281

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:12 pm
‏My main problem with your arguments has been: Swords.

‏You acted like because Trunks used his sword and didn't scratch Goku, it would be the same thing with every swordsman ever. What if Soma is a much more talented swordsman than Trunks? And the sword also matters. The Claimh Solais is the strongest sword in AoS. I think that Trunks' sword would be about low to middle range in Castlevania swords.

‏Oh, and Superman is much faster than a train. He is faster than a speeding bullet.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#282

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:22 pm
‏The Clamih Solais is Gigantic, a is infused with a holy force that completly slaughters everything. Its weilded by a person with the strengh of a hundreds and souls and huge rpg stat numbers. Stupid anime character X may be not be able to hurt goku with a simble steel sword and average superhuman strengh, but this is a HUGE SWORD swung by the personification of evil itself, and even if that somehow didn't scrath him the sword would still smite him for bleeding on the holy artifact.

‏The lightning is boosted by a Massive INT score, so there.

‏He Wouldn't be invincible, he would simply regenerate really fast.

‏(DRAMATIC WORDS)

‏EDIT: If the sword dosn't work somehow he can go into the menu and switch to the Scyth of Death himself, which is almost as overpowered.
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#283

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:23 pm
‏I doubt Goku could Kill Soma anyway, unless he's made of Spikes >_>
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#284

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:25 pm

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ I doubt Goku could Kill Soma anyway, unless he's made of Spikes >_>

‏Youir thinking of megaman. Besides, then he could switch to mimic soul and farm money off him.
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#285

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:26 pm
‏But Spikes do lots of Damage in Castlevania.

‏I mean an assload

‏Ok, Ok, If Goku is made of Spikes, and is in a Spike covered room >_>
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#286

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:28 pm
‏well yeah, but hes not made of spikes, and spike covered rooms arn't in the rules.
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#287

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:29 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ GM, you said Super Man can only be killed by dudes from planets with a red sun and rainbow variants of kryptonite. That should disqualify him

‏You forgot the kryptonian metals.
‏You didn't reply completely to my argument either.(I'll let you figure out what you missed.)
‏Though I did forget to mention that Superman can drown
‏And some inacarnations of him can't even go into space without a spacesuit.

‏you can eliminate his powers temporarily with a weapon (usually a ray gun)
‏that harnesses the rays of the red sun.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#288

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:29 pm
‏I was joking anyway.

‏Carry on.
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#289

‏Post by heh » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:35 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ 1. Make a bitchy, albeit funny list of found faults in a topic taken too seriously

‏ 2. Make no valid points.

‏ GM, you said Super Man can only be killed by dudes from planets with a red sun and rainbow variants of kryptonite. That should disqualify him but ya know what? Even if he's not, the dude is slow. Faster than a train? SLOW. Man of Steel? If literal, Goku could chew him up.

‏where exactly is the thershold between "horrible beatdown" and "disqualifyed" in terms of damage taking.

‏COULD IT BE THAT THERE IS NONE
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#290

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:26 pm
‏Sorry but someone has to say it. Man of steel women of kleanex.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#291

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:53 pm
‏Say, what about Alucard? I've never played as him in Castlevania, but I here he's pretty cool. He can turn into a bat and dodge some of Goku's attacks.

‏Then, he could bite him, since he's half vampire. Don't say that the teeth wouldn't be sharp enough. DON'T
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#292

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:03 pm
‏You probably shouldn't argue with characters you don't know anything about...
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#293

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:11 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Saria, your point was eloquently spoken & valid but didn't answer my question. What did Hulk have that allowed him to defeat Onslaught that Goku doesn't?

‏No, no. I don't have to answer that question, because that's not the point. It's not about Hulk having something that Goku may or may not have. It's about the fact that losing one battle, to one person, does not determine the outcome of every subsequent battle (as I said before).

‏The Hulk beat Onslaught.

‏This does not automatically mean Goku will beat Onslaught.

‏Not JUST because Hulk already beat Onslaught.

‏Goku might be able to beat Onslaught, but not because the Hulk already did.
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#294

‏Post by Deku Tree » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:10 pm
‏I would think Doomsday would eventually stand a chance, what with his evolving to be stronger than the thing that killed him after each time he's defeated.
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#295

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:52 pm
‏I've heard of a character from the marvel univeres called Darwin (I think that's his name.) who's power is that he developes what ever power he needs to face the given situation, though his power would probly just teliport him away like it did on one of the many hulk rampages.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#296

‏Post by Deepfake » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:59 pm
‏Superman isn't just as fast as a speeding bullet, saying that he is faster simply means he is faster. He is in fact strong enough and fast enough to spin planet Earth backwards.

‏I mentioned the Phoenix as well. The Phoenix can (supposedly)create stars. The core of the Sun is roughly equivalent to 13,600,000 kelvin. The Sun is a star, if you haven't figured that out yet, IRHP. ;) The Phoenix can control molecular fire, which isn't just "some fancy fire", it's the equivalent of being able to summon the core temperature of a star at will. Anywhere in her presence, given there is matter. Goku is made of matter.

‏Onslaught? Well, the thing is that the Hulk didn't kill Onslaught. The physical form of Onslaught is just a manifestation of the raw mental power of Charles Xavier's suppressed anger combined with the mastery of ionized matter that is the Magnetism of Erik Lenshir.

‏ Every electron, by its nature, is a small magnet (see Electron magnetic dipole moment). Ordinarily, the countless electrons in a material are randomly oriented in different directions, leaving no effect on average, but in a bar magnet the electrons are aligned in the same direction, so they act cooperatively, creating a net magnetic field.

‏The power to control magnetism is fundamentally the ability to control displaced electrons, or create electron displacement. In the character Magneto, it didn't manifest in such a powerful fashion as it did in Onslaught - Onslaught can telepathically amplify his own power. This gives him the ability, logically, to ionize matter.

‏ ionize
‏ To give an atom or group of atoms a net electric charge by adding or removing one or more electrons.

‏ i·on·ize Pronunciation[ahy-uh-nahyz] verb, -ized, -iz·ing.
‏ –verb (used with object) 1. to separate or change into ions.
‏ 2. to produce ions in.
‏ –verb (used without object) 3. to become changed into the form of ions, as by dissolving.

‏By controlling the electrons that Goku is made up of, he could very well simply ruin the matter that Goku is made of by dissolution.

‏ dis·solve Audio Help /dɪˈzɒlv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-zolv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb -solved, -solv·ing, noun
‏ –verb (used with object) 1. to make a solution of, as by mixing with a liquid; pass into solution: to dissolve salt in water.
‏ 2. to melt; liquefy: to dissolve sugar into syrup.
‏ 3. to undo (a tie or bond); break up (a connection, union, etc.).
‏ 4. to break up (an assembly or organization); dismiss; disperse.
‏ 5. Government. to order the termination of (a parliament or other legislative body).
‏ 6. to bring to an end; terminate; destroy: to dissolve one's hopes.
‏ 7. to separate into parts or elements; disintegrate.
‏ 8. to destroy the binding power or influence of: to dissolve a spell.
‏ 9. Law. to deprive of force; abrogate; annul: to dissolve a marriage.
‏ –verb (used without object) 10. to become dissolved, as in a solvent.
‏ 11. to become melted or liquefied.
‏ 12. to disintegrate, break up, or disperse.
‏ 13. to lose force, intensity, or strength.
‏ 14. to disappear gradually; fade away.
‏ 15. to break down emotionally; lose one's composure: The poor child dissolved in tears.
‏ 16. Movies, Television. to fade out one shot or scene while simultaneously fading in the next, overlapping the two during the process.

‏It doesn't matter where Goku is, as long as he is within the range of Onslaught's ability, which is hypothetically limitless. Onslaught doesn't necessarily have to trump Goku in that fashion, because he can also absorb the minds and powers of others. Why did he choose to engage the Hulk in physical, hand to hand combat? Why did he not simply increase his own strength to destroy the Hulk? It was really just a folly of circumstance and plot: He was written that way. Marvel had to depict him as having fault, if they wanted to sell a dramatic series. We are taking fictional characters out of the bounds of their creator's control, and setting their raw power at one another. He is additionally an incredibly powerful telepath and telekinetic.

‏But this argument is kind of pointless in the sense that you've tried to setup rules that Goku invariably breaks, by way of his own superceding death. A battle has a beginning and an end, but a fight doesn't truly end until there is a victor or an accord - you're taking a character to whom death does not apply, and demanding he fight mortal characters.

‏The sad thing is that there are plenty of characters that don't need to overcome him by sheer force. By example, the mythological Medusa could simply see him and turn him to stone. There is a character known as Meridith Gentry in a book series I began reading recently with an ability known as "the hand of blood" - she has the magical ability as a mortal half-fae to cause a person to simultaneously suffer every single wound that has ever been inflicted to him. Being that Goku has suffered numerous defeats, she would win simply by the prestigious career of dying and returning for more punishment that he has built for himself. There are characters in fiction, such as Death Knights, that can speak "killing words"; this means that he would die because they said "die". You'd probably argue that this isn't fair. I'd say that you threw fairness out the window, already, so picking fights over rules isn't really going to earn you any props in this one.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#297

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:26 pm
‏^Thank you for bringing mythology in.
‏Now I can say the following can beat goku.
‏*ahem*
‏a basilisk(not the harry potter kind,but the original kind.)
‏Jörmungandr
‏The original mythological version of thor
‏and
‏Fenrir

‏Ready! aaand.
‏ARGUE!!!
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#298

‏Post by The Willful Wanderer » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:54 am
‏Brief sideline:

‏I would just like to say that I wish I could thank Saria multiple times for that last post. Thank you.

‏Please continue to pretend you're geeking out.
‏\"What if nothing means anything? What if nothing really matters?.....
‏...Or suppose EVERYTHING matters. Which would be worse?\"
‏-Calvin

‏\"Joke \'em if they can\'t take a f$%k.\"
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#299

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:05 am
‏I post only to please. ;)

‏:lol:
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#300

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:04 am
‏Some of what I am hearing is ridiculous. Goku has NO form of invincibility. He returned from death like any average Joe could. By finding the 7 Dragon Balls.

‏So spikes hurt Soma badly but Goku, who makes Kid Buu, who was destroying EVERY PLANET in the universe to try to find the Z fighters, look like NOTHING can't beat Soma...okay and maybe if he turns into a bat Goku cbn't hit him *rolls eyes* Sure, why not.

‏I set up rules so people can't say "die" and end this topic in one cheap post.

‏I think Wyborn took out the Phoenix and Onslaught arguments.

‏I have one question on Super Man to clear this up: Can he be beat to death? If so, he loses. I never seen Supes' punches' shock waves destroy mountains or planets. Or anything much frankly.

‏Oh and that holy force from Soma's sword wouldn't hurt Goku probably. If it only hurts impure people, like the Spirit Bomb, then that won't work on Goku.

‏Oh, and Trunks has more than "average super human strength." He killed Cyborg Frieza & King Cold easy.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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… 16 …

#301

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:07 am
‏Yeah, Goku's not invincible, yet you cut out everyone who stands a chance of harming Goku, because you set Goku himself as the standard and in effect caused everyone who stands a chance as cheap and invulnerable.

‏Therefore, I demand that this can only be taken one of two ways. Anything else will prove to me that you are being unfair and I will ask for a lock on this topic.

‏1. Goku is Regulated to Super Saiyan, Medium sized Spirit Bomb (Or, after the Trunks Saga). That way, you can keep your "No invulnerability" and you won't come off as a bastard when you claim everyone that stood a chance is cheap.

‏2. Keep Goku the way he is but No "No Invulnerability" rule. Broli, Sentry, Giygas, EVERYONE. This way we have a true "who can beat Goku" throwdown.

‏There is your choices. I await your responce.
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#302

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:11 am

‏ Annoying 10 Year Old]Sure wrote:

‏ Really?

‏ No, really?

‏ This is not how you argue. You do not just toss my points aside like I failed to make any by boiling my argument down to two off-kilter points and then trying to disprove them with typical "But wait, this is Goku!" arguments.

‏ First of all, you ignored my knowledge of lightning, a topic I hold dear as ages ago I played with a character named Galefore whose main ability was manipulation of electromagnetic/electrostatic energy. You ignored that electricity could easily be used by a skilled welder to not only mind-control someone, but stop their heart. I know that's a deus ex machina, and I'm sure there's a way to prevent the attacker from killing you so easily, but you're missing my point: Goku is not invulnerable to electrical energy.

‏ If you so much as dare to rubbing anything about anyone in my face, prepare to cry. A lot.

‏ Also, your sword argument is severely flawed. I don't give a **** how much body hair and bulging muscularity Goku grows on that poorly developed character of his, there is still the possibility that a powerful swordsman, especially one who is using a sword such as Excalibur (the FF incarnation), could cut Goku. It depends on the wielder, and remember, you've merely listed a weaker Saiya-Jin, Trunks, against a powerful version of Goku. Even in SSJ10002043490293, Goku would find himself hard pressed to deal with a person using an enormously powerful blade if he was a person of equal power to Goku. Say, for example, we took Kefka in his most powerful form, and slipped a large version of Excalibur in his hand. He'd **** Goku up, as you've already admitted, and he'd use the sword just for added humiliation.

‏ Remember, if the sword and wielder are powerful, it doesn't matter if the weapon is a sword. It still has potential. Just because Goku is Goku doesn't mean we have to use ****ing Ki to attack him and his pretty hair.

‏ I think Wyborn took out the Phoenix and Onslaught arguments

‏ No. Saria is still arguing them. Argue back, or I have no respect for you and will start discounting your arguments like you do ours.

‏ Oh, and Trunks has more than "average super human strength." He killed Cyborg Frieza & King Cold easy.

‏omg wao.

‏Seriously, Freiza and King Cold appear to be so weak that even the weakest people mentioned in this topic could destroy their pathetic asses. It doesn't help your argument that Trunks' sword is the best evar and that Goku can beat any sword because he blocked it.
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#303

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:15 am
‏Goku took forever to kill Frieza once. Later, Trunks kills Frieza without any problem, but can't even touch Goku.

‏I don't think Goku got that much stronger in between sagas. I think that can show inbalance in characters.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#304

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:16 am
‏I believe that Frieza got weaker.

‏At least, that's what I believe, because I'm a DBZ fanboy. :p
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#305

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:17 am
‏Addressed to the ten-year-old-pokemon-hater.....guy...

‏I still haven't heard the rest of your argument to mah pewst.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#306

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:20 am
‏He still shouldn't have gotten weak enough that he goes from "I CAN FIGHT WITHOUT HALF OF MY BODY" to "ONO A SWORD I AM DED"
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#307

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:24 am
‏Taz: So, Goku has to lose 3 levels of SSj and have no Super Spirit Bomb or fight against someone who can think "die" and win. Or yer gonna be a d**k and have the topic locked. Whatever.

‏I never discarded your electricity arguments, I merely want to let ya know a great deal of elec had a minimal affect on Goku as a snot nosed, billion times weaker (an estimation based on power levels), version of himself. I just want to know why you think it'd work now if it didn't then.
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#308

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:27 am
‏He didn't-
‏*sigh*
‏gale you explain Ima tiyad.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#309

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:29 am
‏Yeah, no. No, see, here's the deal. Roshi's electricity was likely Ki-based, not real, cloud-and-earth produced lightning. Lightning, as Guild so eloquently corrected me on, is several hundred times the heat of the Sun's surface. Can Goku just fly into the sun and live? No. That is not possible for any living organism. As such, a wielder of electrical energy of a powerful, superheated variety would do damage, and moreover, you still ignore my argument that it merely takes a spark to stop your heart. So yeah. Still saying Electricity could be effective.
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#310

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:38 am
‏Tens(or hundreds) of thousands of times hotter than thesurface of the sun dammit! :mad:
‏And I had other corrections for you,like how lightning is really made(magical unicorns)
‏but I don't feel like-a posting so much-a right-a now-a. :D
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#311

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:40 am

‏ Lightning, as Guild so eloquently corrected me on, is several hundred times the heat of the Sun's surface.

‏^Are you unable to read, child?
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#312

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:40 am
‏I am not 10.

‏Cyborg Frieza was the strongest version of Frieza. Goku jumps in power all the time, just recovering from near death makes him stronger or defeating a foe. That's how the Saiyans survive as a warrior race.

‏And like I said, unless someone wants to beat me to it (please do), I'll find all info I can on Roshi's attack including if it is Ki, voltage and whatever else we need to end the electric argument.
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#313

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:43 am
‏^Dude. It's a fictional story. Fiction versus realty? No. I'll just ignore any 'lol pruf' that some DBZ nerd wrote on a fanwiki and stick with science. Because, you know, that works.
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#314

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:43 am
‏^^Too late!(the ten thing I mean)the ten-year-old-pokemon-hater.....guy... is your new pet name
‏:D
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#315

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:45 am
‏*Sigh*

‏You just proved you want Goku to be respected by cheating your way through this Topic.

‏So, I'm calling Goku the weakest character ever now.

‏Ahem.

‏Goku can't beat anything. Ki is just light, meaning everyone is DBZ is just extremely sensitive to light :p

‏TIME FOR ARGEU!
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#316

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:47 am
‏^Haha, just when I was hoping someone would lighten the mood.

‏Also, here's a new one: Fox/Pikachu in Brawl. They'd cheap their way to victory.
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#317

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am
‏Haha, Taz, are you Bi-Polar?!

‏Then you just auto win, Herc?

‏I repeat, I am not 10. =D
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#318

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:50 am

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ ^Are you unable to read, child?

‏Dammit! :mad:
‏stop

^
‏sorry the ten-year-old-pokemon-hater.....guy...
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#319

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:52 am
‏^^It's Gale, and no, I was just saying. I'm using Science here, and you're planning to counter by asking some other fantard who made up an explanation? Nah. I'll do with what I've already said, thank you ma'am.
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#320

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:56 am

‏ M. Hercule Poirot wrote:
‏ ^^It's Gale, and no, I was just saying. I'm using Science here, and you're planning to counter by asking some other fantard who made up an explanation? Nah. I'll do with what I've already said, thank you ma'am.

‏I'm not a fantard. -_-
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#321

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:57 am
‏Seriously.

‏BUT YOU IS!
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#322

‏Post by Galefore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:58 am
‏^^Well... That's debatable. :p

‏As well, I was referring to whatever DBZ nerd wrote the DBZ Wiki or whatever other source of information on a petty attack you could find.
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#323

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:59 am
‏I know how to lighten the mood.

‏mood lightening goodness :D

‏EDIT:

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ BUT YOU IS!

‏nooo.
‏He's the ten-year-old-pokemon-hater.....guy...
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#324

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:08 am
‏Ya said "some other fantard". Eh, well I may be mildly fantarded anyway.

‏So, about your science, almost all fiction defies it. Besides, Cooler was pushed into the sun and was not fully destroyed. And Goku would tap Cooler and he'd die, just like how Gohan annihilated Frieza in one, I believe non-SSj, punch. SSj4 Goku should be able to survive it.
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#325

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:14 am
‏Ok, I'm gonna try my Inner Fanboy at this

‏SSJ4 Goku would probably barely survive a lightning bolt to the face, along with a 50% chance that Goku may or may not faint afterwards, depending on if he had to fight evil, or if it was a friendly fight.

‏Also, Roshi was significantly weaker than Goku and there is NO WAY that Roshi could summon real lightning ever.
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#326

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:25 am
‏Why do I keep coming back here?
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#327

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:31 am
‏I'm an SSj4 nerd

‏Roshi was not weaker, infact, he wasted a Kamehameha at Full Power to destroy the moon so he wouldn't have to kill Goku in his (stronger) ape form and he still (barely, due to physical stature) beat Goku!

‏And some characters use elemental attacks in the DB series so why discount Roshi? Wether they are completely Ki based is debatable.
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#328

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:47 pm

‏ Swordmaster Link wrote:
‏ Why do I keep coming back here?

‏It's a train wreck - you want to look away, but just. Cannot. Help. Yourself.
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#329

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:00 pm
‏1 6 mili amps across the heart is all that's needed to kill.
‏2 I'm correct Gau is far more inteligent and better adjusted then you orginaly gave him credit for.
‏3 Kefka kicks Goku's over powered ass!
‏4 The fun's starting to drain from this nerd fight.

‏-You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
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#330

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:17 pm
‏Counter list for PK

‏1. To kill what? A human or a Saiyan? Or what about Jolteon? That is what it takes to kill me and you, not SSj4 Goku.

‏2. True, but still a retard by today's IQ tests.

‏3. I'd still love to debate this after I beat FF6.

‏4. A bit, but I am still holding my own.
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#331

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:18 pm
‏How about we let it die?

‏IRHP, don't lie. Roshi is weak. He struggles his way through his fight with Child Goku, and was unable to win a thing afterwards.

‏Also, a child could do a Kamehameha to destroy the moon :p

‏Continue, and you'll hear from me a critical analysis of Goku.
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#332

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:21 pm
‏We can let it die but I'll finish each argument and go out on the note of Kefka's temporary victory =p

‏Master Roshi kicked Yamcha's ass, blew up the freakin' moon, fought Piccolo and stood his ground and in one of the few DBZ movies I never seen (World's Strongest) I am sure he beats some ass. He also annihilated a huge ass mountain in DB. He is stronger than a couple of people you guys brought up to beat Goku.
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#333

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:31 pm
‏1 We can argue Kefka via PM after this topic dies.
‏2 He's hovering somewhere between metaly retardation and averge inteligence and for a kid that raised himself that's a DAMN fine feat.
‏3 Kill a human but I'm sure that a bullet would kill goku if he coldn't block or evade it in time so it still counts.

‏- You stupid dog!
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#334

‏Post by SephirothKirby » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:33 pm
>_>

‏Jesus could beat Goku.
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#335

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:34 pm
‏I really don't like SSJ4 Goku, because he is non-canon. Mostly in a Anime that had little to no help from Toriyama.

‏Also, you come off as an ass with your "IT IN FACE KILL YOU YEAH." So, that just brushes people the wrong way, even IF you think you're right (trust me, I take this from experiance) if all of VGF disagrees with you, it's better to let the arguement go unfinished.

‏Also, you were cheating, anyway.
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#336

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:41 pm
‏Launch in Dragon Ball shot Krillin, Goku and Roshi for being perverts all the time and all it did was hurt a lot.

‏Considering the circumstances, Gau's a genius. Otherwise, a retard. =)

‏If we assume Jesus is a fictional character (which he is not, science proved his existence, at least as a person) then yes, he would win hands down. But that's a whole different subject, I don't wanna clog this debate with THAT one.

‏See, ya can't take the heat when I prove my points (especially my Roshi defense, it was flawless). So am I just supposed to back down off a fun, started-out-light-hearted topic? Can't do that really, gotta have a little integrity(sp?) .

‏Oh, and I see your point on SSj4 Goku, but the series did have a minimal amount of help, mostly art from Akira Toriyama. Storywise, I believe there was probably no input or maybe at the most, an opinion thrown out there.
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#337

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:45 pm
‏Actually, it seems that I have caused everyone to hate you.

‏If you don't stop, the Forum will forever know you as "the Goku Ho"

‏Look at Inferno Dragon. He posted in a topic that he believed in a girl who said she was god, and people still refer to it to this day.

‏I'm lucky I pulled my neck out all those times I almost got in too much trouble. Geez.

‏Besides, you cheat.
‏Top

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#338

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:50 pm
‏The only reasons that said bulltes did killer were,
‏1 Rule of funny, her changes in personalty and the actions that stemmed from there were there as comic releif.
‏2 It would end the show, if Goku died like that the show would have been over.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
‏Top

#339

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:57 pm
‏PK: While I completely agreed with what you said at one point, if we don't take it all literally, we can technically pick and choose anything. I lost to Wyborn via so many technicalities I wanted to throw up =p But I'm reasonable so, sure, maybe it would have really killed him back then but what about now? SSj4 Goku has been hit with all kinds of flying projectiles and other DBZ characters have been shot for real, inflicting no damage and they are weaker than he is. Therefore, my point still stands valid.

‏Taz: I just assumed everyone always hated me anyway =p But the nickname would kinda suck but I can live with it if it's the price I must pay for a meaningless victory =D Oh, and ID's ridiculous.
‏Top

#340

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:01 pm

‏ Tazy Ten wrote:
‏ Actually, it seems that I have caused everyone to hate you.

‏ If you don't stop, the Forum will forever know you as "the Goku Ho"

‏ Look at Inferno Dragon. He posted in a topic that he believed in a girl who said she was god, and people still refer to it to this day.

‏ I'm lucky I pulled my neck out all those times I almost got in too much trouble. Geez.

‏ Besides, you cheat.

‏Image
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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… 18 …

#341

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:15 pm
‏Haha, nice pics man. Nice pics.
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#342

‏Post by Cravdraa » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:50 pm
‏Captain Falcon could beat Goku.
‏Just watch this:

‏[video]FFtw7qW7Vcw[/video]

‏CHRIST CAP! How many STARS did you just destroy with ONE punch?!

‏DBZ is a series known for it's big explosions, and yet in it, no character has ever made an explosion that big. Not Goku. Not anyone.

‏Now here's a clip of Captain Falcon defeating Cell, whom Goku actually lost to at the time.
‏[video]1oFJ87G85-E[/video]

‏I rest my case.

‏Winner, Captain Falcon.
‏Top

#343

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:00 pm
‏I'll watch those videos later. I'll believe it when I see it.
‏Top

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#344

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:02 pm

‏ I'll believe it when I see it.

‏It's a simple case of watching the videos...
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#345

‏Post by heh » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:28 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Goku has NO form of invincibility.

‏ I have one question on Super Man to clear this up: Can he be beat to death? If so, he loses. I never seen Supes' punches' shock waves destroy mountains or planets. Or anything much frankly.

‏So Goku can't be beat to death regardless of the force of the beating but somehow is not invincible? So basiclly, your saying hes immune to physical damage, since with enough force the difference between being beat to death and being sliced to death are slim. If he can survive Sun-Core temperatures and Absolute Zero he is essentially immune to temperture damage, and I'm assuming if I say he can be Mind Controlled that would qualify as "cheap".

‏So my question is, HOW IS GOKU NOT INVINCIBLE ACCORDING TO YOU ARGUEMENTS. Short of "Instant kills" and more roundabout ways such a imprisoning him in some inescapeable prison and waiting for him to starve, which is apparently againsts the rules. How are you supposed to kill him?

‏In short, You are a Cheater.

‏ Oh and that holy force from Soma's sword wouldn't hurt Goku probably. If it only hurts impure people, like the Spirit Bomb, then that won't work on Goku.

‏It dosn't only hurt impure people, no idea where you got that from.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Taz: So, Goku has to lose 3 levels of SSj and have no Super Spirit Bomb or fight against someone who can think "die" and win. Or yer gonna be a d**k and have the topic locked. Whatever.

‏IRONY

‏ I never discarded your electricity arguments, I merely want to let ya know a great deal of elec had a minimal affect on Goku as a snot nosed, billion times weaker (an estimation based on power levels), version of himself. I just want to know why you think it'd work now if it didn't then.

‏Yeah, thats electricity. Lets make an assumution and say that Master old guy somehow managed to create electric chair levels of voltage. Lightning is not only several thousand time more then that, its also hotter then the surface of the sun. THIS IS SEVERAL THOUSAND TIMES MORE VOLTAGE, PLUS A ****TON OF HEAT.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I'll watch those videos later. I'll believe it when I see it.

‏HMMMMMMM IGNORING ARGUEMENTS?
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#346

‏Post by Blake » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:10 pm
‏LMAO. I love you Crav for that second video.
‏Top

#347

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:50 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I think Wyborn took out the Phoenix and Onslaught arguments.

‏New points being made by AI about these guys. Stop hiding behind Wyborn for a second, read AI's post in full, then (if you care to lose more) try and come back with anything reasonable.

‏But it's okay, we can all see that your ability to counter actual valid arguments falls to, "no, someone already did that once". As people are trying to explain, Master Roshi's "lightning" attack is a different beast to actual plasma-based lightning. The lightning you get out of a storm. The lightning that we're talking about. Also, keep assuring us that you'll find these mystical stats for Roshi's attack. They won't stand up to real lightning. We all know.

‏I, for one, am leaving the topic with knowledge that Goku is lame. They should've stuck with the original idea of killing him and making Gohan the strongest. *sigh*
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
‏Top

#348

‏Post by Deepfake » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:57 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I think Wyborn took out the Phoenix and Onslaught arguments.

‏No, he just asserted how much he dislikes them and has no faith in their ability.

‏Since you are clearly unwilling to address the abilities of these characters which I have described in the briefest manner possible, I humbly accept your admission of defeat.

‏[video]NgfpJWUYgbg[/video]
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#349

‏Post by Galefore » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:15 am
‏I believe I'll pull out of this one. If my very rudimentary knowledge of science doesn't work, and I'm far too lazy to do some hefty research to come up with a killing blow, I'll just leave it at "Goku is not invulnerable to everything, kid" and leave the rest of you to argue with more organization than I could muster.

‏Adieu, dear versionofIRHPinthistopic. May you employ your little gray cells to more effect at a later date.
‏SWORDLESS OCARINA OF TIME AND MORE GENERAL FLAILING AVAILABLE AT THIS FINE CHANNELHUB.
‏Top

#350

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:41 am
‏Stop cryin'

‏ZG: I am using a PSP web browser, the damn thing can't support videos so when I get the chance, I'll use my friend's laptop or the library's PC.

‏TG: How do you kill Goku? For one, supposedly there's a moon somewhere IRL (heard about it on the History Channel) that is so cold ALL movement is impossible for anything. Can a character generate and properly apply such a temp on Goku? That's one. Or try time control, aging Goku to death. An example? Time Wizard can do this.

‏Noone here can prove either way exactly HOW Roshi generated said electric attack, HOW powerful it was or anything else we need. That applies to ALL of us so till we get answers, why should you guys auto win any portion of this Roshi debate?

‏About that holy sword thing, why would this affect Goku? Provide your argument as to why it would work. Is it because it ****ed up Dracula? I think you said that earlier but if I say blah blah affected or didn't affect Goku, you guys instantly dismiss it!

‏I re-read AI's latest post about Phoenix. Apparently it boils down to:

‏Stars are hot, Phoenix can make one and apparently Goku should die from the heat.

‏Saria... I DID RESPOND TO THIS. READ MY COOLER ARGUMENT.

‏As far as Onslaught goes, I don't honestly agree with "Goku can't beat him just cause Hulk can't!". No, Hulk is comparitively weak, slow and stupid. Also, we can't argue with how stories are written.

‏*sighs* About the "rock paper scissors" argument, it is not always valid. Each one has a distinct ability to win. Hulk is like Goku's ape form, just without Ki or intelligence, mainly. We could call Onslaught SCISSORS and call Hulk ROCK. Seeing as Goku can do what Hulk can do only better, I say Goku should be considered a boulder. It still crushes scissors only better. Logical conclusion? I think so but I doubt anyone else will think so. >_<
‏Top

#351

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:45 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ About that holy sword thing, why would this affect Goku? Provide your argument as to why it would work. Is it because it ****ed up Dracula? I think you said that earlier but if I say blah blah affected or didn't affect Goku, you guys instantly dismiss it!

‏ *sighs* About the "rock paper scissors" argument, it is not always valid. Each one has a distinct ability to win. Hulk is like Goku's ape form, just without Ki or intelligence, mainly. We could call Onslaught SCISSORS and call Hulk ROCK. Seeing as Goku can do what Hulk can do only better, I say Goku should be considered a boulder. It still crushes scissors only better. Logical conclusion? I think so but I doubt anyone else will think so. >_<

‏1. Because it's a ****ing awesome sword that I can assure you is stronger than Trunks's? The most powerful sword in a Castlevania game? That's why it could affect him.

‏2. Did you call Hulk stupid? The Hulk is not stupid. Yeah, sometimes he can't make full sentences. But there are also instances where he has proven to be extremely intelligent (gray hulk)
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#352

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:56 pm
‏I thought that the Hulk was a kind of putre Id manifestation like Mr. Hyde from " the Strange Case of Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde." but then again i never had any comics as a kid so I really don't know that much about them.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
‏Top

#353

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:46 pm
‏Sure, I agree Soma's sword is better than Trunks' but the swordsman is equally important if not more so. Soma takes a considerable amount of damage from spikes proving his defenses are very low. And he is surely slower as well. His techniques and equipment are formidable but HE is just not up to par.

‏Which Hulk fought Onslaught?
‏Top

#354

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:38 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Soma takes a considerable amount of damage from spikes proving his defenses are very low.

‏Well sure, but they're ****ing giant SPIKES.

‏When somebody falls into giant spikes, what usually happens?

‏Oh, I don't know, they are IMPALED BY THE SPIKE.

‏Oh, and regarding speed:

‏ That Guy wrote:
‏ Mmmm.

‏ Soma can absorb the souls of his enemys and use them to gain various abilitys. He also absorbs the power of Dracula himself, who in castlevania can basically command every evil thing in the world. The Claimh Solais is the best sword in the game because its retardedly powerful, boosts all his stats a retarded amount, is retardly huge yet retardedly fast, and hits with the retardly overpowered holy element. The Eversing is a retardedly powerful piece of armor, the chaos ring boosts his stats and give him infinate MP, the Lightning doll soul is a retardedly powerful bolt of lightning ability which is instant traveling, does huge damage, and this like 3 times for electric damage. Alura Une Soul Rapidly restores his health in exchange for his (Infinate due to the chaos Ring) MP, and the Headhunter soul boosts his stats for EVERY. SINGLE. SOUL. SOMA. HAS. Theres like 150 something enemys in the game and you can have 9 of each of there souls.

‏ In other words, Soma can one shot Goku.

‏How is somebody who has the power of gaining the power of every soul he defeats, even the lord of darkness himself, Dracula, not up to par?
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
‏Top

#355

‏Post by Deepfake » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:15 pm
‏Your skull is like a peanut. It is between my fingers. Look into my eyes now as I am crushing it. It is crushed. Now I lift it to my lips and drink the slime that once was your central nervous system. It is delicious to me, in my bloodlust.

‏I put on my robe and wizard hat.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#356

‏Post by heh » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:31 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Sure, I agree Soma's sword is better than Trunks' but the swordsman is equally important if not more so. Soma takes a considerable amount of damage from spikes proving his defenses are very low. And he is surely slower as well. His techniques and equipment are formidable but HE is just not up to par.

‏ Which Hulk fought Onslaught?

‏If was are talking hilariously overleveled soma he takes like 30 damage of his 2500 hp from spikes, and 1 from from being hit by laser beams directed from the core essence of the embodiment of evil itself. Spikes in castlevania are hardly less potent then megaman spikes when it comes to damage of an normally leveled character.

‏Wait, I have an Idea. Throw megaman spikes at goku. instant kill.
‏Top

#357

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:36 pm
‏The Kid from I Wanna Be The Guy.

‏Let's see Goku try to become The Guy.

‏The Kid has perfect physical skill, which is required to be the Guy.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#358

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:27 am
‏I really, really think that Soma could beat Goku. Sure, I haven't got that far in the game, but from seeing what he could do, he would have Goku beat.
‏Top

#359

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:06 am
‏Fanboy again

‏Soma is actually not slow at all. He can dodge any opponents attack just by Backdashing, Plain Dashing, and he even has a move where he quickly jumps upward.

‏Also, those spikes? They would kill everyone else in one hit. Soma would take 4 before giving up the ghost, and so would Goku if we had to ask how many times Goku would have to be stabbed by spikes, and being SSJ4 would mean it would take 6 times, so he has the "defense advantage" but so did every boss Soma went up against.

‏Let's say for example, if Goku were to charge up his Kamehameha. By the time Goku fires the beam, Soma would already be out of it's range. Even if Goku were to Instant Transmission into his face and fire the beam, it would take at least one second for Goku to yell "HA!" and fire his beam, and in that time Soma has backdashed behind him and used his Deadly Sword.

‏I've never played Aria of Sorrow, but I have played Dawn of Sorrow, and the most powerful weapon in the game is the "Golden Axe" (or Death Scythe. :shrug: never beat the whole thing). And in the time it takes Goku to finish his beam, Soma can swing the largest, most cumbersome weapon in the game twice, giving Goku at least 300 Damage, if not more.

‏Now, if Goku were to unleash his Spirit Bomb, that would leave him completely open to Soma's attacks, and there is a 90% chance that Goku would die before the Spirit Bomb could be used, 5% chance they would both die, and the last 5% goes to Goku suriving the initial attack, but fatally wounded, so there is a chance that Goku would win.

‏It is entirely possible to do Holy Damage to a Holy Type, simply due to the force, and there have been Holy-Type enemies in Castlevania (Like that Valkerie Recolor, I believe)

‏I'm not saying Soma would need the Lightning attack, he can most certainly beat Goku without it

‏He is also not invulnerable with regenerative health, as it does so very slowly, and it is very possible to kill him, but it would incredibly hard.

‏....I didn't even figure souls into this equation.

‏Soma himself can fire Beams, Large Swarms of Bugs, Fire, Water, a long Tounge, Bones, Spears, and do powerful Close-Range Combat.

‏He can turn into an Iron Golem, a Valkerie (Which zooms across the screen), summon a Fire-Spitting Demon, an Imp, a Giant Slug, protect himself with a powerful shield when things get tough.

‏So, let's count the numbers, shall we?:

‏Soma beats Goku: 60%

‏Both Soma and Goku lose: 5%

‏Goku beats Soma: 35% (For this, Goku would have to do something underhanded and sneaky, but Goku ain't that kind of guy. so, it also goes down a bit because of that.)

‏This does not figure in Spirit Bomb use, if any of Goku's Friends come in to help, or if Goku suffers from a Heart Attack halfway through the fight....

‏Oh wait, Soma Joke.

‏It also doesn't account for if Soma turns evil suddenly, or if Julius busts in.

‏So, yeah, if you're gonna do this, you're gonna have to know at least 60% of all entertainment.
‏Top

#360

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:22 am
‏Um, but I already stated a while back (what shoulda been common sense) that characters are based on what they come from. 9999 HP may be max in one game for a character or if a character comes from anime or something you can't force game rules on them. We can't say "Goku dies from spikes cuz Mega Man & Bass do!!". No, spikes can't affect Goku at ALL if bullets and such don't.

‏Also, when I call a character slow, I mean compared to Goku. Get mad, go ahead. Vs Jeice & Burter, he moved so fast he looked STILL.
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#361

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:31 am
‏Oh come on, giant spikes. How can he not be affected? Does his chest just block the point that would impale every other person that went there?
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
‏Top

#362

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:37 am
‏BTW, Taz, don't think I didn't acknowledge your post. I read it all but I can't see ANY of it working. Bug swarms? If he just raised his power level those bugs would disintigrate.

‏Fire? We already tried this, I mean, besides, Goku wouldn't die from one attack of fire even if you disagree. How many Kamehameha can Soma take? 1. It'll be just a LITTLE more effective than spikes =p

‏ Masaharu Morimoto wrote:
‏ Oh come on, giant spikes. How can he not be affected? Does his chest just block the point that would impale every other person that went there?

‏Tell me why it should affect him when huge bullets and swords don't. Bring up a point of refrence or something to backup why it should affect him...
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#363

‏Post by heh » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:49 am
‏You hardly need to be able to teleport to dodge a punch or a slow charging beam.

‏Lets not forget now, that if the characters are confined to physics and limitations if their game, they would also calculate damage according to the game they were in. Castlevania spikes, i'm pretty sure, hit with a fraction of your health and not a set limit, although it is affected by your defense somewhat, therefore Goku Touching castlevania spikes would instantly put him the "heavy breathing with black smudges on his anime face" state.

‏And lets not forget Chronomage soul. (Zephr soul in Dawn of Sorrow)
‏Top

#364

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:02 am
‏Spikes may take aset ammount of Castlevania's characters health but I am sure Bass would instantly die (unless he had the item which prevents one spike death) from what Bass' game shows. And by what Goku's anime tells us, those spikes. ARE NOTHING. You cannot force one set of rules on any one character/universe. That goes for me too.

‏Goku can shoot a weak beam and blow up a planet but maybe in X game the story states X planet can't be destroyed due to X affect. Goku can't just blow it up, see what I mean?
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#365

‏Post by heh » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:05 am
‏I change my arguement to "Use chronomage, stand next to goku and mash A, then use chronomage again"
‏Top

#366

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:08 am

‏ That Guy wrote:
‏ I change my arguement to "Use chronomage, stand next to goku and mash A, then use chronomage again"

‏And Goku just sh*ts himself and takes it...?
‏Top

#367

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:17 am

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Um, but I already stated a while back (what shoulda been common sense) that characters are based on what they come from. 9999 HP may be max in one game for a character or if a character comes from anime or something you can't force game rules on them. We can't say "Goku dies from spikes cuz Mega Man & Bass do!!". No, spikes can't affect Goku at ALL if bullets and such don't.

‏If you want a fair evaluation, then you have no choice but to put it in game standards. It's annoying, but it works.

‏ Also, when I call a character slow, I mean compared to Goku. Get mad, go ahead. Vs Jeice & Burter, he moved so fast he looked STILL.

‏I didn't say he moved faster than Goku. You also can't lie and say Soma couldn't backdash behind him, if it takes a second of more to unleash the attack, there is a good chance Soma can dodge it. I also could have said he did the Jump upward really fast move, avoiding the blast, but not being able to attack him.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ BTW, Taz, don't think I didn't acknowledge your post. I read it all but I can't see ANY of it working. Bug swarms? If he just raised his power level those bugs would disintigrate.

‏I'm sorry, I completley forgot about the Tiny Scythes coming out of nowhere, the Ice Spikes, and the 50 other souls that Soma has, so I was just giving you a taste.

‏And, Soma has etheral versions of Abaddon's kids, meaning they aren't as easy to destroy.

‏ Fire? We already tried this, I mean, besides, Goku wouldn't die from one attack of fire even if you disagree.

‏ I am reminded of a cartoon where Fire Creatures melted a Fire-Proof Ship, because they were from the Sun.

‏ Don't know why...

‏ How many Kamehameha can Soma take? 1. It'll be just a LITTLE more effective than spikes =p

‏ Uh, teacher? for that to happen, wouldn't Goku have to hit him for that to happen?

‏ Anyway, Soma has very high defense. I would say maybe one and a half, but that's it. This IS Goku we're talking about. Not Roshi.

‏ Tell me why it should affect him when huge bullets and swords don't. Bring up a point of refrence or something to backup why it should affect him...

‏....They're F**KING SPIKES, THEY KILL EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T A SKELETON.

‏It's a Castlevania Spike, which is much different. It sends you flying backwards because of the immense pain

‏They are the bain of some players existance, because if you're caught in a tiny corridor and you get hit by a spike, you are dead. And, yes, this may even apply to Jesus, so Goku would most certainly die from those spikes. It would just take more hits.

‏I'm not saying Goku would stand there and die. No, he would most certainly fly around all spikes. I'm not trying to weaken Goku by saying those spikes hurt, but It's still true that those spikes could kill everything.
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#368

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:24 am
‏IRHP's logic:
‏http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a386/ ... spikes.jpg"forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i15.photobucket. ... %5B/IMG%5D"
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#369

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:23 pm
‏Pay attention class, this is how you fairly compare characters.

‏A fair evaluation would involve comparing both sets of rules and coming to a standard. For example, what about the SNES game Magic Boy? A puddle of ankle high water kills him, does that mean it kills Goku? Also, nothing suggests, like I am sure you'll say, anything magical about the damned water. So, how do we base the damage Goku would take from Magic Boy in a fight? First, pair their statistics.

‏Speed of MB: Slow fat magic kid, not too quick.

‏Speed of Goku: Speed of light.

‏Strength of MB: Shoots magic beams that don't kill anything, just merely stuns creatures of weak calibur.

‏Strength of Goku: Shoots beams of energy that destroy planets like nothin'.

‏Defense of MB: Dies from ankle high water.

‏Defense of Goku (SSj4): Can die from universal threats such as Baby Vegeta.

‏Final Verdict via comparison: Goku wins.

‏But how do we judge how much damage Goku would take from ankle high water? Easy. It's ankle high water. And how do we judge the affect of Kamehameha on MB? Kamehameha has been shown to be more powerful than anything displayed in MB which means, Goku should not ever be hurt by Magic Boy and Kamehameha should destroy him. Also, ankle high water was the funniest example of MB's death but snakes can also kill him. Smiling snakes.

‏My point is, judge the calibur of the warriors and the context in which their attacks are used. Just cause MB has a super duper magic beam that can take out 50 snakes doesn't mean it can affect Goku.
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#370

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:28 pm
‏and just because giants pointy spikes can impale everybody that's not Goku, that doesn't mean Goku will also be impaled.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#371

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:33 pm
...

‏Nice comparison, real in depth.

‏Tell me, what about Super Man, think it would impale him anyone?
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#372

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:37 pm
‏Superman is a Godmode character, you said so yourself.

‏Unless you're admitting that Goku is a Godmode character...
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#373

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:45 pm
‏Nice try. But everyone else disagreed with me for the most part on that one so my point still stands. Most worthwhile characters aren't gonna be affected by spikes. Or ankle high water.
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#374

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:47 pm
‏You're comparing ankle high water to giant sharp objects that are sharp enough to tear through your flesh and torture you until you die from blood loss.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#375

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:50 pm
‏Magic Boy.......

‏Well, Magic Boy is a generic platform hero so there really is no comparison there. :p

‏You know, I could get used to comparisons. >_>
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#376

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:53 pm
‏Well, yeah, I know what you mean, I can't compare the 2, water and spikes right? That's my whole point. Magic Boy and Soma are in a different league, Soma would rape the damn kid, but Goku could take them both at the same time. A different league by their actions. Goku could fall in spikes AND snkle high water and not take a scratch.

‏Yeah, comparisons are usually the fairest way to do things. And pretty accurate and easy too.
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#377

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:05 pm
‏Ok, I was pissed at you for the past 5 pages or so, so hold on. P-H-E-W.

‏Ok.

‏I can admit that Goku could probably take 100 hits and only be mildly injured. Ok. Ok.

‏But you have to admit that Goku would have one hell of a time fighting Soma.

‏Soma is this Dracula incarnate that can move around any enemy he's faced with a sort of Flair. His opponents have moved faster than time, been more powerful than 10,000 People, and have even claimed some of Dracula's Dakr Power for themselves, so Soma would most certainly not be blown away by Goku. At the same time, Goku shouldn't get easily killed by Soma (and I take back that thing about the Spirit Bomb for the most part. sorry.)

‏Most certainly, they both would hold their own against each other, and it would have to fall on one of three things.

‏1. If Goku does something clever and sneaky (Such as firing his blasts behind him, or something of the sort.

‏2. If Soma messes up at some point.

‏3. If they really are going to spend 3 hours trying to kill each other.

‏But, it is at a standstill.

‏Me? I think it is entirely possible for Soma to beat Goku, not because of his strength or power, but because he has the intelligence to get around anyone's attacks just noticing thier pattern.

‏Now, that's possible. Soma's going to have an uphill battle if he tries, and that's not saying "lol it will happen", so this IS a tie for the most part, as it can go either way.

‏Now, people who can actually beat Goku 100%? I'll may have to pull a MUGEN character out of my butt.
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#378

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:23 pm
‏We all probably just had an assload of misunderstandings

‏I just can type more via PC and express everything more easily since I can type more than a paragraph. =p

‏Anyway, you mentioned his foes being stronger than 10,000 people. Well, in DBZ most average humans have a power level of about 1. So we can assume Soma has more than 10,000 since he beat dudes with that much. So we can say he'd beat early Saiyan Saga Goku easily but SSj4, I can't see happening.

‏But he's stronger than I thought for sure since power level alone isn't enough to decide victory.

‏Take for instance Dabura,Ginyu or Majuub. They could technically defeat Goku despite an obvious power diff.

‏Soma's abilities would make it an interesting fight at least.
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#379

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:27 pm
‏Speaking of MUGEN, Judgespear's Homers and Peters.

‏Seriously, the guy makes em extremely cheap.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#380

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:04 pm
‏Mugen?
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#381

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:21 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Mugen?

‏Wiki is your friend.

‏M.U.G.E.N - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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#382

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 pm
‏Heh Batman, sure he may not be strong but he's damn smart paraniod as all get out and plans for everydamn thing he even has plans to take out members of the jsutice leage incase they go rouge.

‏As a joke Naruto The kids damn stubborn he also refuses to stay down, also he's damn near impossible to kill because of his enhanced healing rate. Then there's the matter of the nine tailed fox he can call upon or better yet His shiriken theemed rasenga witch cuts at a cellular level.

‏You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#383

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:27 pm
‏Finally someone I am familiar with. Narute's only chance would be to make his Shadow Clones and confuse Goku. And I mean, make a LOT of them, more than he ever has and on a constant basis. Wearing him down is the only option since Narute is comparitively, Dragon Ball status.

‏Bat Man, really, I could kick his ass if I had the right weapons and training. Anyone could, dudes just Bill Gates on steroids with anger issues. But I admit, if cool was a deciding factor in a fight he'd probably win.
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#384

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:54 pm
‏^ Anybody could kick his ass in hand to hand combat given the right training. But the thing is, they don't, Batman had better training, and he also has tools to help him out.

‏He's more than Bill Gates on steroids and anger issues, but that's another debate.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#385

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:02 pm
‏Well, ya catch my drift. He has no special, supernatural or enhanced abilities (original Bat Man) which means anyone with moderate intelligence and great strength should defeat him fairly easily. The stories always require circumstance and outside forces for Bat Man to beat someone. I remember he punked Super Man around one time since he had Kryptonite but without it, he'd be doomed.

‏Anyway, like you said, that is a different debate...
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#386

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:02 pm
‏If you're going to show Goku off against Batman then you're going to have to show them off on a level field - which means all you have to do is have Batman full prepared for the fight. I'm not obtusely going to assume Batman would win hands down, but you have to factor in the contingency that knowing he was going up against Goku he would be prepared - possibly, say, by having gathered all the Dragon Balls or something. He defeated Superman in one on one combat because of this, and Superman, essentially, is a god with limitless power. This topic is way to friggin long for me to have read it all but I felt like throwing in some of my ideas in characters who could easily whip Goku.

‏The Hulk - this seems at first ridiculous but you have to take into account the fact that Hulk is actually limitlessly powerful. The madder he gets, the more powerful he gets. He went toe to toe with the Sentry at one point, who is next on the list.

‏The Sentry - this isn't even a contest. The Sentry actually exists two seconds or so in the future. Goku is nowhere near as fast as him, for example, because whatever he does the sentry would have been aware of for two seconds prior. Wrap your mind around that for a minute. Not to mention that The Sentry is such an impossibly powerful champion for good that his very existance created The Void, a supervillain so powerful it takes the combined forces of every superhero and supervillain in the Marvel Universe to fight him - and lose, before the Sentry takes him on one on one.

‏Dr. Manhattan - from Alan Moore's Watchmen, again one-sided. Manhattan exists in the past, present, and the future. He has control over reality - and is, essentially, God. He could kill Goku on a scientifically level without ever having to engage him in physical combat with a thought.

‏Goku's limitations are pretty broad. Everything he does is purely physical. It's absurd to compare him to anime villains like Knives or heroes like Vash because despite their prowess he could pretty much relax in place and the shedding of his aura would destroy them where they stand. But again, limitations of the physical leave him weak as a puppy compared to a whole host of characters, and even physically he's still compareable to chars like The Hulk. If you take into consideration Final Fantasy characters statisticaly maxed out he loses already, and its often overlooked because of physical subtlety. I don't care enough to go into it, but if you want read some old FF deathmatches in the RPG forum. There was an ff8 vs ff7 one that sticks out as really validating my point.
‏\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"
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#387

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:24 pm
‏I don't think an FF character could really defeat Goku as easily as you say they could. We're assuming each group is at their full potential, right?
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#388

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:25 pm
‏Um I kinda just used Naruto as a joke but I'll give it a shot. At the time of the Sand/Sound invastion Naruto was able to produce 200 shadow clones only a few hours after fighting with Neji. given that the shadow clones divide one's chakra even amungst the or ingnal and his desired number of clones, that's quite impressive. After that stunt he was able to continue fighting long enough to summon Gammabunta an emmence taod to aid in the fight against the Ichibi.

‏All of this was in part one where Naruto is for the mostpart a semi trained shinobi who's closer to a brawler then anything else. in part two not only does Naruto have better controll over his chakra, is a more tacticle thinker and can create the aformentioned wind elimental rasenshiriken he also has the Kiyubi's power witch he can call on. Also he now uses his shadowclone to better efect usingthem to observe and breakdown an opponet fighting style instend of just spaming the jutsu and charging in blindly he's a far more effective fighter.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#389

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:58 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Stars are hot, Phoenix can make one and apparently Goku should die from the heat.

‏Apparently?

‏...What?

‏You don't know what a star is, do you? You don't fathom what heat a star consists of. Millions of degrees Kelvin. Millions.

‏You don't understand, therefore, you cannot possibly argue against it. You just sound ridiculous, because you say things like, "apparently Goku should die from the heat". Of a goddamn star.

‏That's not "apparently". That's Goku no longer exists. The matter his body is made from will become part of the star. It doesn't melt, it doesn't catch on fire, he would be consumed and there would be nothing remaining. Nothing; there's no question about it.

‏****, I can't even believe that anyone could try and argue that. ****.
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#390

‏Post by Cravdraa » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:10 pm
‏Actually, weaker beings than Goku have been shot into the sun in DBZ and survived. =p
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#391

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:47 am
‏^The Sun is technically classified as a G Main-Sequence star. On the stellar temperature classification sequence, ranked by a system of letters ordered OBAFGKM, G is actually a COOLER temperature star than others; the Sun is pitifully cool compared to stars that rank O, B, and A, and it's incredibly smaller.

‏Now, given that Phoenix's powers are so vast, she should be more than capable of creating stars that reach the utmost temperatures that rank on the O or B side of the spectrum.

‏While certain characters may have flown in to the Sun and survived, when you start talking about O or B main sequence stars (or heck, even white dwarfs are incomparably hotter than the Sun), it's an entirely different matter. :p The Sun is NOTHING compared to those. ;)
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#392

‏Post by Deepfake » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:39 am

‏ Cravdraa wrote:
‏ Actually, weaker beings than Goku have been shot into the sun in DBZ and survived. =p

‏And they also don't emit a sonic boom when they travel at speeds that are supposedly faster than sound. Apparently, science was not a focal point in DBZ. In a series where these rules actually apply, Goku would become plasma and then be dispersed into heat as he is consumed by the kinetic energy of pure fusion.

‏He would be completely annihilated by friction any time he moved at extreme speeds, anyway. He doesn't have the ability to create a vacuum at will just to travel, and he still needs to breathe even if he did.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#393

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:22 am

‏ Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds wrote:
‏ It doesn't melt, it doesn't catch on fire, he would be consumed and there would be nothing remaining. Nothing; there's no question about it.

‏But, but, Courage and Muriel walked on the sun and THEY didn't melt :(
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#394

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:53 pm
‏Crav is right

‏Hey, instead of saying meaningless things like science isn't a focal point in DBZ and that I don't know anything about stars, try looking at the evidence, the fictional facts I present instead of crying about things that are truely a mere scape goat.

‏Cooler, injured and weakened from his battle with Goku, is blasted via Kamehameha from Earth into the Sun and is still not fully destroyed.

‏So tell me, if Goku has an almost inconceivablly greater ammount of strength, defense and speed (I'm not talking about Meta Cooler) then tell me, doesn't that mean Goku should be able to survive much easier than Cooler even in a more powerful star? Of course it does, that's how DBZ statistics generally work, if one has a higher power level than another, they can generally withstand whatever the other took without a problem no matter how it defies your logic. DBZ was written as it was, maybe Cooler, the weak basterd, should have been fully destroyed but the fact remains he wasn't and Goku wouldn't be either unless someone can tell me why he should be.
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#395

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:12 pm

‏ Hey, instead of saying meaningless things like science isn't a focal point in DBZ and that I don't know anything about stars, try looking at the evidence, the fictional facts I present instead of crying about things that are truely a mere scape goat.

‏Firstly, "fictional facts" made me laugh.

‏Secondly, why is it that only YOUR (fictional) logic is allowed to apply?

‏ if one has a higher power level than another, they can generally withstand whatever the other took without a problem no matter how it defies your logic.

‏Yeah, okay, Goku survives the sun easier than Cooler. He doesn't survive anything that ranks up in the O or B range.
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#396

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:28 pm
‏Firstly for me, I was gonna point out how stupid it sounded, but it's true. Also, it is funny. I just shoulda beat you to it. =P

‏Also, my fictional logic doesn't only apply, it's just proven in DBZ that Goku could survive what I say he can. If The Hulk can get shot with a Vulcan Cannon and live, I'd accept that. Is it that hard to grasp all this?

‏Well, I am not familiar with the ranges of suns but even IF his phsyical body couldn't withstand it, he is capable of creating a shield keeping everything out with his own Ki. Besides, I'd really have to have an explanation on this whole star classes thing. *Cue Wiki link*
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#397

‏Post by Deku Tree » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:33 pm
‏[video]Oyz7e8iQ6Uo[/video]
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#398

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:06 pm
‏To: Erdawn

‏Erdawn, if Bat Man used the Dragon Balls to summon Shenron in a fight with Goku, that would count as 2 on 1.

‏As far as generic green Hulk goes, the one that I am familiar with, I cannot perceive a circumstance in which Hulk could ever defeat Goku.

‏Sentry's gonna need more than 2 seconds of future knowledge to win a fight. As an example, Bardock forseen future events and Frieza still killed him regardless.

‏Also, no FF party character could EVER take on Goku 1-on-1. Just like they could never defeat a final boss 1-on-1. They rely on each other to survive, thats FF.

‏Also, this Manhatten dude sounds like a surefire disqualification...but forget that for now, tell me about him, his offensive and defensive power, I'm curious.

‏PK, Naruto still is much less intelligent and has comparitively no experience when sat near Goku. Also, his abilities are mainly close combat giving Goku the edge by far.
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#399

‏Post by Deepfake » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:05 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Hey, instead of saying meaningless things like science isn't a focal point in DBZ and that I don't know anything about stars.

‏But it's pointless to argue about how he could die when most of the fundamental causes of death are rendered impotent by ****ty writing. If you want to hide behind using bad writing as an excuse for Goku to avoid death, we might as well surmise that it is just bad writing that entities like the Phoenix haven't undone existence as it is. That would universally trump Goku or anyone else, in any fashion. How hard is it for you to perceive that a creature capable of manipulating the fabric of existence could win a fight against some guy with a monkey tale that shoots energy blasts? It should go without saying while that he may not be susceptible to the reality of most physics, he is still made of the same stuff as the rest of reality.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#400

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:25 am
‏The Phoenix, the way you put it seems like it can NOT lose. Can it? Has it ever been defeated?

‏It manipulates the very fabric of existence. Does this take a toll on it? Does it take time to use such power? Is there a time limit for said form?

‏The Phoenix better actually be perceivably beatable or it'll be my turn to question some writing.
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#401

‏Post by Mushi » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:25 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Sentry's gonna need more than 2 seconds of future knowledge to win a fight. As an example, Bardock forseen future events and Frieza still killed him regardless.

‏He means as in, every action the Sentry makes is two seconds faster than everyone else.

‏Meaning he's two seconds faster than everything. Bardock had visions, meaning he could see the future.

‏Two different things, my friend.
‏:clap:
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#402

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:41 pm
‏Two seconds faster than his opponent's speed or is mentally 2 seconds ahead, as in knowing the future?
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#403

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:56 pm
‏From what I've read, the former.

‏Also I don't care if Naruto doesn't win that more a joke suggestion than anything besides its already been established the Kefka wins so I already got what I wanted from this topic.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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#404

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:28 pm
‏Hrm

‏Well, as far as Naruto goes, I thought it was an interesting match, even as a joke. Maybe in the end of the series he'd be able to actually beat Goku, seeing as he's just a kid in the series. Goku is actually pretty old in GT...

‏So, if it is that he is physically faster by two seconds, how could he be faster than the speed of light? By two seconds no less...I could belive he could match it but what is faster than light?

‏And yes, technically Kefka won, I really just wanna beat that game soon. I gotta see this bastard for myself. As far as I got in the game, he was just a joke, I can't see him being a serious boss...
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#405

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:56 pm
‏Isn't Kefka just a clown?
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#406

‏Post by Maximum Spider » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:02 pm

‏ 1-up salesman wrote:
‏ Isn't Kefka just a clown?

‏Why yes, he is. He's also a pshycopathic maniac who can tear the very fabric of our universe apart in an instant.

‏He is a clown, but he's not just a clown.
‏Top

#407

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:00 pm
‏Isn't Terra just some guy that you know nothing about except for the fact that he'll be in a game?
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
‏Top

#408

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:11 pm
‏Isn't Locke the game's Thief?
‏Top

#409

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:25 pm
‏Where do babies come from?
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#410

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:04 pm
‏No Locke is the game's TREASURE HUNTER!

‏How far along did you get in FFVI anyway IRHP?

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#411

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:17 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ So, if it is that he is physically faster by two seconds, how could he be faster than the speed of light? By two seconds no less...I could belive he could match it but what is faster than light?

‏The Sentry "exists" seconds ahead of everyone else. It goes beyond knowing what will happen. He has absolute knowledge of what occurs two seconds into the future because he essentially lives perpetually in the future. It's not speed; it's a different place on the timeline. He knows what Goku does seconds before he does it. The Sentry can counter or avoid every attack Goku makes because he already knows Goku's doing it before it's done. Sentry knows when Goku will teleport, and where Goku will reappear. He knows, absolutely, what is going to happen. It's not like having a vision; most stories tend to agree that a vision can be changed prior to it occuring, by altering the circumstances leading up to it. The Sentry knows exactly what will happen, without fail.

‏...I find it disappointing that I need to say the same thing so many times, in so many ways, just in an attempt to make sure you understand what we mean.
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#412

‏Post by Deepfake » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:21 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ It manipulates the very fabric of existence. Does this take a toll on it? Does it take time to use such power? Is there a time limit for said form?

‏ The Phoenix better actually be perceivably beatable or it'll be my turn to question some writing.

‏It hasn't sucked so bad that it's died repeatedly like Goku, if that's what you mean. The Phoenix itself isn't a humanoid person, it is a being that has the capability to inhabit the bodies of others - yes, it has managed to get the body of its host killed. Circumstantially at best, however - the Phoenix usually drives its host body mad due to the scope and complexity of its power. It is technically mortal, just like Goku is technically mortal. All physical energy or matter is technically destroyable, if you can comprehend the fashion.

‏Being able to manipulate reality is not so hard to perceive - it's the common extra ability to manipulate matter and energy known as telekinesis. Goku could attempt to punch it, but would logically be consumed by however fashion the Phoenix chooses to manifest its ability.

‏If you don't understand why it is technically impossible for anything, including Goku, to withstand the pure heat of a star - you do not understand heat. Heat is the manifestion of kinetic energy on a magnificently sub-atomic level. When you measure heat, you measure the amount of kinetic energy that is apparent in matter. Kinetic energy is movement - you are measuring movement. Goku can be injured by punches, and other types of physical attacks - that is kinetic damage. Being subjected to an absurd amount of heat is grounds for the destruction of any being that physically manifests in a traditional fashion (ie: made of matter).

‏Essentially, attacking him with the core heat of a high-ranking star would be like every single atom that Goku is made of is being punched by a guy made of millions(or more) of atomic bombs over and over again in the span of thousandths of a millisecond. This would take place for the entire duration of which Goku is in the presence of this heat.

‏A character like the Phoenix can accelerate matter to such an excited state that this occurs.

‏Time limits apply, but due to the physical nature of the 4th dimension, the Phoenix can theoretically manipulate time-streams to the point of speeding up fragments of space in the fourth dimension. Limits have been implied in writing, as the Phoenix is a being with a conscience, but that is all circumstantial. To imagine any being with the ability to manifest its intellect in a power that can manipulate kineticism on a root level is to imagine that, if refined, they could have these abilities. Sentry could theoretically display the same potential, given the nature of his abilities.

‏If you want to start inventing more rules, you might be able to class this sort of character out just like everyone else that obviously would win in a fight against Goku. Apparently, you want to limit everything to Dragon Ball logic, because Goku exists in DBZ.

‏DBZ itself exists outside of the logical bounds of reality - it contradicts itself constantly. Vegeta, as a low-level saiyan, could destroy planets instantly. Roshi could destroy the moon, instantly. Frieza, who was near infinitely more powerful than either of them, took laborious amounts of effort and time to destroy a planet. Dragon Ball doesn't have its own logic so much as it is made to suit the storyline. The storyline is fallible where logic is concerned. The type of energy and abilities that they use to attack one another must be limited to avoid destruction of the planet they inhabit, so much so that it would be impossible to destroy their foes which are invariably made of much tougher material than the planets they inhabit.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#413

‏Post by Lurch1982 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:33 pm
‏Re: Topic title.

‏The answer is Lobo.

‏Discussion over.
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#414

‏Post by Deepfake » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:46 pm
‏^ agreed, Lobo is badassed.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#415

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:34 am
‏^^WHich in itself is ridiculous, because by that logic they should have planets orbiting around them and other such nonsense. The fact that DRagon Ball as a logical fantasy series being retarted notwithstanding, I'll move on.

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ Erdawn, if Bat Man used the Dragon Balls to summon Shenron in a fight with Goku, that would count as 2 on 1.

‏ As far as generic green Hulk goes, the one that I am familiar with, I cannot perceive a circumstance in which Hulk could ever defeat Goku.

‏ Sentry's gonna need more than 2 seconds of future knowledge to win a fight. As an example, Bardock forseen future events and Frieza still killed him regardless.

‏ Also, no FF party character could EVER take on Goku 1-on-1. Just like they could never defeat a final boss 1-on-1. They rely on each other to survive, thats FF.

‏ Also, this Manhatten dude sounds like a surefire disqualification...but forget that for now, tell me about him, his offensive and defensive power, I'm curious.

‏ PK, Naruto still is much less intelligent and has comparitively no experience when sat near Goku. Also, his abilities are mainly close combat giving Goku the edge by far.

‏Your Batman argument is ridiculous. We're theorising that Batman would be faced against Goku. Goku is super-human, those are his qualities - he's a Saiyajin alien or whatever, he can "move at the speed of light"(I disregard this completely, by the way, just because the mindless characters of Dragonball Z suggest this and the series seeming lack of any logical consistence damn that very statement as nothing more than ignorant banter not to be taken at face-value - the repercussions of moving "at the speed of light" are neither taken into consideration or even hinted at, and thus are not a factor) and ****ing blows planets up by looking at them. You are facing him off against a regular, mortal human being. You either have no concept of how a ****ing death-match is wrong or just fail. In order to actually pit Batman off against Goku you have to factor in his limitations with his abilities - like I stated, in order to level the playing field, Batman would have to be prepared to win the battle - that would include everything up to summoning SHenron to ****ing turn Goku into a regular mortal like him or some other drastic measure, to building an army of robots to fight Goku for him (in the manner he protects Gotham while disabled and aged in the what-if Kingdom Come continuity). If anything, this death-match is made even more stupid because for all intents and purposes if Batman were a normal human being in the Dragonball universe (which is nonsensical) his abilities, taking into consideration the commitment and discipline of his training regime and martial arts mastery, would probably exceed most of the show's cast excluding the rare deus-sex-machina 'alien race' argument.

‏In regards to the Hulk, that wasn't even a ****ing argument. FOr all intents and purposes you cannot conceive of the Hulk ever beating Goku? How? Why? Theorise! I just planely stated that the Hulk's wrath is the only limit to his power, and it is a constant staple in the Marvel series to broadly state that the madder he gets, the more powerful he gets. The Hulk is pretty much one of the greatest forces of nature in that continuity. His own leg-strenght has grown to the point where in a single leap he can launch himself into the statosphere from stationary - and he's not using "ki" to fly, that just muscle capacity. Not to mention regenerative capabilities. His limitless potential has squared him off against The Sentry, who is the real powerhouse behind this argument, Superman not withstanding :p

‏Moving on to the actual Sentry, I cannot even begin to start at how badly this character would demolish Goku in any standing contest. When I said he existed two seconds in the future I meant it in the way I phrased it - The Sentry litterally exists in the present but all-together two seconds in the future, I do not mean he can "predict" events which may come about two seconds in the future, I mean he's there. A sucker-punch from Goku would be parried and turned away by the logic that The Sentry would have had two full seconds knowledge of that incoming attack, in a kind of time-loop from present to future and back. Half his existance is actually dictated by events in the present. Consider it a kind of charm. His power - measured in something like the exploding of one billion suns in a single instant - is so terrible he needs to exert most of that power to contain himself in a mortal, physical form. Imagine, for a second, that kind of power unleashed - and not merely buried away. We're talking Goku confetti at the atomic level. and I re-iterate again - his very existance - by natural law - creates the ultimate antagonist - The Void - by rule of mathematical balance. He's as much responsible for Good as Evil because his presence is so one-sided to the forces of Good that the cosmic balance of reality needs to measure itself out.

‏Dr. Manhattan actually pales in comparason, and we're talking about an omniscient being who exists in all tenses of the time-stream. He's actually right out because we're not even talking about a physical contest.

‏Also, again, you're working under an assumption (towards FF characters) that the visual constraints of time-based battles actually have relevance on what would actually be happening in real time based off the numerical values of attributes and all that jazz. A maxed out character in say, FF7, would be moving faster than a ****ing hummingbird, hitting with enough strenght to uproot mountain-ranges, and depending on the materia-combination operating around rules of reality to allow for pre-emptive engagements, counter-attacks, parries, and overpowering regardless of the circumstance. And that's not mention the unleashing of potentially world-shattering summon-power.

‏As a last note - Dragonball pitted against stuff like, say, the Marvel universe is laughable because your essentially pitting a cartoon series with a complete disregard for physics and natural law (say, the disregard of the consequences or even power required to destroy and actual ****ing planet, the disappreciation of what a planet actually is, physics, all that jazz) versus a series that does - and then scientifically overrides them. If the Sentry blows up a Planet, for example, that is absolutely catastrophic and yet still feasible and impressive. If Goku does it, we are reminded that Dragonball Z is a cartoon.

‏Also, other candidates? Spawn would destroy Goku without contest, and so would Luke Skywalker. I am ending this now to free up the computer. Otherwise I would argue you into an early grave.

‏Your point.
‏\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"
‏-The Runaway Five

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#416

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:52 am

‏ Col. Les Claypool wrote:
‏ Isn't Terra just some guy that you know nothing about except for the fact that he'll be in a game?

‏No, there is a little information about him, and on the KH II FM secret vid, it shows him in battle.
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#417

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:24 am

‏ Erdawn Il Deus wrote:
‏ Luke Skywalker

‏Are we talking Original Trilogy Luke here or Grand Master Luke? (Or somewhere inbetween, since he didn't become Grand Master until later)
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#418

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:36 am
‏Grand Master.
‏\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"
‏-The Runaway Five

‏Rx Prozach: Toronto is one sucky Toronto. :P I can\'t imagine smoking enough pot to find a shoe museum interes
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#419

‏Post by Bomby » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:40 am
‏Image
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#420

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:43 am

‏ 1-up salesman wrote:
‏ No, there is a little information about him, and on the KH II FM secret vid, it shows him in battle.

‏That's barely anything at all.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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‏509 posts

… 22 …

‏Joker
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#421

‏Post by Joker » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:01 am
‏Adam Warlock w/ Infinite Gauntlet - Snaps his fingers and end of story ( probably wouldn't count because his power is da shizznit in this form)

‏Image

‏Dr. Starnge Spell of the Vashanti - Reverts Goku to an embryo and then nullfies his existance once the eye of Agamoto's light is cast.

‏Image

‏Dr. Fate - Bands of Faldor would scatter Goku's corporal form across the nether region.

‏Image

‏Since all three use magic they can safely cast these spells from a distance let alone another dimension.

‏Pretty much any character with enough magical power and access to the right spells can simply cast the incantation from their location and affect Goku wherever he lies. Or anyone with enough telekenitic powers can simply focuse on one of his main organs and explode them from inside his body using only the power of their mind.

‏And didn't Goku die in one of the future timelines from a simple heart attack?? If it wasn't for Trunks going back in time and giving him the antidote he would have perished.

‏Which would mean that Pestilence one of Apocolyps's Horse Man could simply touch Goku and infect him with a virus that kills him in seconds. I assume Goku has had colds before and can suffer from disease and such. I mean if the guy can die from a heart attack he's still mortal. Hell even removing the air from an entire planet would kill him seeing as he still needs air to breath.

‏Besides Goku's power level is only relevant to his reality comparing that to anything else from a different world or reality is impossible. Goku's power level could be very weak in the Marvel or DC comic book universe, where as in his reality/world he's pretty much god level.

‏I'm sure most if not all of my points have been adressed in the 20+ pages before this one, but I'll be damned if I'm going to read through all that crap.

‏see my motha ****ing sig for the smilie

‏End of discussion
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‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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#422

‏Post by Rainbow Dash » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:18 am
‏His only real restrictions are that it has to be 1 on 1 (no exceptions) and the person has to be defeatable in some way. I don't think you can defeat the Apocalypse Horsemen...
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#423

‏Post by Joker » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:01 am
‏^yes you can Pestilence has been taken out by several members of the X-Men and X-Factor.
‏Image

‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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#424

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:16 pm
‏As Joker has given me an idea, Aang From '"Avatar the last airbender" Being that he bend bend the eliments to his whim with but a simple jesture of his hand he all he needs to do his use his airbending ability to remove all the air from Goku's lungs thus sufficating him to death. though his is about the only way he could win as Aang is't anywhere near goku's evel of overpowered even when using the avatar state.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#425

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:15 pm
‏Pretty sure Goku would stil be able to do enough while suffocating to kill Ang.
‏\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"
‏-The Runaway Five

‏Rx Prozach: Toronto is one sucky Toronto. :P I can\'t imagine smoking enough pot to find a shoe museum interes
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#426

‏Post by Joker » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:34 pm
‏Yeah it would have to be instantaneous for it to have any real effect.
‏Image

‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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#427

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:51 pm

‏ Col. Les Claypool wrote:
‏ That's barely anything at all.

‏Well WHATever
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#428

‏Post by -=(Mr.420)=- » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:34 pm
‏Hello. I am a sweet and innocent little boy who doesn't wanna feel Masahiro's wrath. ^.^
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#429

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:35 pm
‏^ UH OH YOU SAID FAGS YOU LOSE AT LIFE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

‏See, how annoying that sounds?
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#430

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:35 pm
‏True, though if he could bend enough air out of goku's lungs to collaps them well that's game over right there. Another tough damn hard to pull off option would be to combine air and firebending to make Goku inhale said flames again causing his lungs to colaps. a final form of attack is that Aang could dehydrate goku to death by pulling all the mositure from his body via waterbending, though all this is mute as unless aang got some kind of miricel distraction he wouldn't be able to move fast enough to pull this off.

‏Man the eliment being of Avatar has some nasty uses if you think about it just right. I don't know much about the show but I recall hearing about a waterbender who's a skilled enough fighter that she can use her waterbending not only to heal but for something call bloodbending. I don't want to know how the hell bloodbending got into a show seemingly aimed at kids.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#431

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:37 pm
‏Thank you for that unnecessary insult. Though I don't generally listen to somebody who doesn't spell "you" in its entirety.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#432

‏Post by -=(Mr.420)=- » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:50 pm
‏Who wants to make Daisy Chains~~~? <3
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#433

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:56 pm

‏ -=(Mr.420)=- wrote:
‏ doop doop

‏Right back at ya', retard.
‏Or as you would retartedly say, "RIT BAK A YA, RTARD WOOT"
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#434

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:03 pm

‏ -=(Mr.420)=- wrote:
‏ doop doop

‏PROTIP: Having a life includes having good Grammer and not calling people Fags, therefore you don't have one. :p
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#435

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:08 pm
‏Tazy Ten my friend, you have just gotten 999 cool points

‏ -=(Mr.420)=- wrote:
‏ doop doop

‏You call us mean while you insult us like that. Who's the ***nerd now?
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#436

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:12 pm
‏Protip, Using 420 marks you as a fool, a fool who has baked away what little inteligence he once had with an over abundence of drug use for the sake of getting high.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#437

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:14 pm
‏I made a huge ass reply on a PC...and it didn't go through. Be prepared to lose, I am looking at info on all the opposing characters and found many unmentioned weaknesses. Example, Dr. Fate sucks w/o his helmet. I'll reply in full later.

‏PSP is gay!
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#438

‏Post by *Exodus* » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:17 pm

‏ PSYCHOKID909 wrote:
‏ True, though if he could bend enough air out of goku's lungs to collaps them well that's game over right there. Another tough damn hard to pull off option would be to combine air and firebending to make Goku inhale said flames again causing his lungs to colaps. a final form of attack is that Aang could dehydrate goku to death by pulling all the mositure from his body via waterbending, though all this is mute as unless aang got some kind of miricel distraction he wouldn't be able to move fast enough to pull this off.

‏ Man the eliment being of Avatar has some nasty uses if you think about it just right. I don't know much about the show but I recall hearing about a waterbender who's a skilled enough fighter that she can use her waterbending not only to heal but for something call bloodbending. I don't want to know how the hell bloodbending got into a show seemingly aimed at kids.

‏ - You stupid dog!

‏Yeah it was an old waterberdender who used the powers of the moon to bend the water contained in the plasma of your blood. By bending the blood she could controll your movements and even force the blood out of every hole in your body. This technique was taught to the water bender that travels with Ang.
‏Top

#439

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:29 pm
‏Putting 420 in your name: Cruise control for getting punched in the face on the Internet.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#440

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:36 pm
‏What a jerk. Flaming him is fun.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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‏509 posts

… 23

‏PK FIRE!
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#441

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:39 pm
‏Oh a big old counter attack eh IRHP? This should turn out to be very intresting.

‏Hmm where'd the littler flamer troll go? Probly off watching the tripe that's on MTV and using his brash personality, and faaux gangsta attitude to hide how insucure he is about his own sexual idenity. Heh should have used Mrs. Garrison for his PDN.

‏- You stupid dog!
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‏1-up Salesman
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#442

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:51 pm
‏lol 990 cool points
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‏spooky scary bearatons
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#443

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:15 pm

‏ -=(Mr.420)=- wrote:
‏ Hello. I am a sweet and innocent little boy who doesn't wanna feel Masahiro's wrath. ^.^

‏Very wise.
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
‏GET BETTER - dan le sac Vs Scroobius Pip
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‏1-up Salesman
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#444

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:55 pm
‏What's wise would be to stop posting, becuase every post he makes is just a stupid insult.
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‏ZeldaGirl
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#445

‏Post by ZeldaGirl » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:07 pm
‏Remember kiddies, you don't flame the trolls back. You report them.
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‏Joker
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#446

‏Post by Joker » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:15 pm
‏I thought I did that :shrug:
‏Image

‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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‏Erdawn Il Deus
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#447

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:46 am
‏WOah. So much hatin on 4: 20.
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#448

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:22 am
‏I did report him.

‏Man, I'd hate to see Goku go up against Light Yagami from Deathnote. Though, Goku could obliterate him before he could write everything down.
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‏PK FIRE!
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#449

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:13 pm
‏You underestimate Light, he'd have Goku's name written down weeks before the fight with an exact cause of death probly something so elaborit and clever that Goku wouldn't know what hit him. Light may be crazy and think that he's a god but he's not stupid.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

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‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#450

‏Post by Joker » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:14 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I made a huge ass reply on a PC...and it didn't go through. Be prepared to lose, I am looking at info on all the opposing characters and found many unmentioned weaknesses. Example, Dr. Fate sucks w/o his helmet. I'll reply in full later.

‏ PSP is gay!

‏Be that as it may, but how the hell would Goku get the helmet off of him when Dr. Fate has the ability to simply use an astral pronjection form. Much like a ghost both energy and solid mass would pass right through. With Goku unable to touch or grab his helmet Dr. Fate can simply cast spells left and right to whoop on Goku.

‏Also saying that Dr. Fate sucks w/o his helmet is like saying Goku sucks with out his Ki energy. Take away the very source of Goku's power and all you have is a human with exceptional hand to hand fighting skills, at which point he would be on Batman's level albiet with out the Genuis of ol' batty.

‏Also Goku isn't very bright I've seen enough episodes where he's pretty much a thick headed clod.
‏Image

‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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#451

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:24 pm
‏Super Spirit Reply...Bomb...thing...

‏First, the rules I set in the beginning aren't definite. For example, if someone just INSISTS that it's not fair for Goku to fight Batman without leveling the field by any means nessacary or about it not being the "right way to do a death match", then you can argue with your own rules and I may engage a bit. But I won't really take into consideration for real that, since Batman wished for immortality on the Dragon Balls via Shenron's power that he can beat Goku.

‏I found this little piece of info here pertaining to Phoenix. "If the Phoenix Force is harmed or killed, it will form an "egg" of cosmic power, incubate in the White Hot Room, and hatch out completely healed." If this is true, there is no way to win, not for anyone. Tell me if I am wrong on this, if it can be completely defeated 100%. Otherwise, it's pretty unfair.

‏About Sentry and how he created this "Void" thing. You people act like living through being sent into the sun is ridiculous, even in fiction. Well, take this: "Breaking free from the illusion, the Sentry found that the Professor and Doctor Strange had been trying to keep the secret the Void knew from the Sentry through controlling him. Seeking out the Void, the Sentry discovered the secret: The secret serum that had granted the Sentry his powers would have worked on anyone. The Void argued that the world had enough trouble with one Sentry and one Void saving and killing people; it didn't need six and half billion more. Understanding everything, the Sentry hurled the Void into the sun. The Void warned Sentry that he would return, and when he did, he would kill everyone." Um, bad writing? I guess so.

‏Now directly about Sentry: "The only psychic abilities he had displayed so far is implanting his memories inside Paul Jenkins' mind and calming the fury of the Hulk." So far we can say this much: Sentry has virtually useless psychic powers. So it has to be a contest of physical combat and Goku has the edge with his long distance Ki attacks. Sure Sentry has that 2 second foreknowledge but his lack of speed would be his downfall since Goku can destroy large areas at once while keeping distance.

‏Light, as I pointed out a long time ago, is just the sort of character who can't be used. Like Ryuk. I can't fathom who could beat Ryuk, since he can't be damaged by anyone in the human world and can kill with a simple stroke of a pen...It's just not fair.

‏Luke Skywalker? Is this a joke?

‏The Hulk: He can jump really high cuz he gots da big muscles? Nice argument but in the tv shows, movies and cartoons I watched, armies can eventually wear him down. Ridiculously weak by DBZ standards, awfully slow and, from EVERYTHING I have ever witnessed about basic ol' green Hulk, he's a dumbass. He cannot fly, virtually a damned staple in Marvel's own universe and he has no projectiles. No, he can't win, he can't even affect Goku unless there's something (which I am sure I am not) I am missing about the Hulk. Oh, and the Madder he gets the stronger he gets? How about when he's dead before he's mad? When his particles disintigrate into nothingness? Or how about even if he could hurt Goku, what about the fact that he'd never touch a speed of light martial arts master? Hulk would never win. Prove to me he can by disproving what I said. Tell me how he can catch Goku or tell me I am wrong about armies tearing his ass up.

‏I'll post more later.
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‏spooky scary bearatons
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#452

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:04 pm
‏See, this arguement will never be won due to one tiny factor.

‏All these characters are from seperate fictional universes.

‏It's hard to compare Goku to lets say, Pikachu or something like that, cause they don't exsist in the same fictional universe.
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
‏GET BETTER - dan le sac Vs Scroobius Pip
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#453

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:07 pm
‏Way to be a killjoy, Masa. :p
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‏PK FIRE!
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#454

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:29 pm
‏Every topic needs a killjoy that's just how the internet works.

‏Also just to annoy IRHP Ness anyone who can browbeat Giygas long enough for the spirtbomb like prayer comand to kick in has a fair shot at holding his own agaenst Goku, also I doubt that even Goku's thick skull would stand up agenst the dimend bat for long. Throw in Ness's SSB abilities and his in game powers and he'll give the living hairdo called Son goku something to fight.

‏PS I love being stubborn and argumentitiv it just so much fun!

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#455

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:33 pm
‏sopdinapjndfpasbhiklasdfj pkasdjo he can't fly???????

‏your logic is undeniable every character who cant fly must suck

‏What about the arguments about intelligent Hulk? Gray Hulk? And didn't you say something about source material? The movies, cartoons, and TV shows aren't the comics. And yes, armies can wear him down, because they are ****ing armies. Hundreds can wear him down. How is that a problem? A ****load of people with tons of high-tech equipment vs. one person.

‏The Phoenix itself cannot die, but one of the Phoenix Force can be defeated. We are talking about somebody under the control of the Phoenix against Goku.

‏And never ever compare the writers of Marvel Comics to Akira-****ing-Toriyama.

‏I'm sorry, I got a little overboard with this post, but damn, your main argument about the Hulk is that he can't fly. He can jump extremely high, Gray Hulk is intelligent.

‏And you seem to continue going on the "speed of light" thing. Remember the quote from DBWiki? Here it is again:

‏"Even though it is not exactly certain how fast Goku can travel, on several occasions, it has been suggested that Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Z, could move faster then the speed of light(this is subjective however, as Piccolo claimed that Raditz could move faster than the speed of light, and raditz was not nearly as powerful as goku at the end of DBZ). This however is flawed considering that the Z senshi themselves watch the light from someone's aura to see where they are during fast paced battles. Vegito was suggested to have the ability to move faster then light speed, considering that he told Super Buu that he had to feel the movement of his Ki because he wouldn't be able to see him with his eyes.
‏Some people argue that Goku was indeed faster then light-speed by the end of Dragon Ball Z, but could move instantaneously while using the Shunkan Ido. The Shunkan Ido translates directly into English as "Instantaneous movement", which suggests that the location change happens instantly, not at light speed."

‏So he's not "omg speed of light nobody can touch him"
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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‏Swordmaster Link
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#456

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:58 pm

‏ Masahiro wrote:
‏ See, this arguement will never be won due to one tiny factor.

‏ All these characters are from seperate fictional universes.

‏ It's hard to compare Goku to lets say, Pikachu or something like that, cause they don't exsist in the same fictional universe.

‏I could've sworn I said something like this 15 pages ago or something.
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‏Lurch1982
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#457

‏Post by Lurch1982 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:32 pm
‏Failing to address Lobo just further proves that Lobo wins.
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‏Erdawn Il Deus
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#458

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:09 pm
‏Well, my post just got erased. Yes. I am not re-writing it. I'm still going to say game, set, match, but instead of re-writing my ****ing essay I'm going to link you here: Powers and abilities of the Hulk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and then here: Luke Skywalker - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki, and then instead of arguing for the Sentry I'm going to use the Hulk's argument to prove the Sentry destroys Goku by simple default logic. I am just not writing all that **** again. But there it is - proof set against absolutely nothing in terms of Goku-supporting evidence that suggests the Saiyajin even has a chance against either.
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#459

‏Post by Blake » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:39 pm
‏The funny thing about the speed of light argument is that Goku most likely cannot physically see and definitely cannot hear his opponent. There is probalby a specific speed and time listed somewhere in which neurons fire into the brain to transmit signals and such. Goku's reaction speed probably is not as fast as the speed of light since to my knowledge nothing is faster than the speed of light. Also, even if he can travel the speed of light, I don't believe it would be possible to accelerate so quickly and stop so abruptly for combat purposes.

‏So my very basic anatomy/psychological/physics conclude that Goku may have this awesome speed, but he cannot physically use this to 100% capacity in a battle that is going to be at close range (which in terms of light speed I can safely say if Goku is 100 miles away from his opponent).

‏I apologize if that post isn't accurate. I'm not energetic enough to research the proper terminology and stuff, just wanted to convey a few pieces of 'scientific' information that could possibly prevent Goku from using his abilities to his max.
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#460

‏Post by Deku Tree » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:22 pm
‏It seems to me that you seem to think Goku can survive the heat of the core of a star because there exist characters who have endured the heat of a star, and Goku can't be weaker than them so he MUST be able to survive the heat of a star.

‏Someone explain the Sentry simply existing 2 seconds ahead in the timeline to me. I don't quite understand the implications.
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‏ Board index Other Entertainment Movies, Television, and Animation

‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

‏Moderator: Bomby
‏509 posts

… 24

#461

‏Post by Deepfake » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:14 pm

‏ I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
‏ I found this little piece of info here pertaining to Phoenix. "If the Phoenix Force is harmed or killed, it will form an "egg" of cosmic power, incubate in the White Hot Room, and hatch out completely healed." If this is true, there is no way to win, not for anyone. Tell me if I am wrong on this, if it can be completely defeated 100%. Otherwise, it's pretty unfair.

‏More loopholes, hmm? Goku himself has come back from the dead repeatedly, even without the power of the dragon balls to aid him. As Panfan mentioned, if we are to assume that the combatants must inhabit a physically corporeal body - then the Phoenix will manifest in the body of a host, ignoring the thoughts and abilities of the host body. Easy fix.

‏If Goku can return from the dead, even circumstantially, then the fight has to be set to a simple defeat - at the stage where the character dies is where the fight ends. Otherwise, Goku cannot be "completely defeated" either. The "if the phoenix is harmed or killed" only applies to the very presence, or soul of the Phoenix. Its host body will be destroyed. Goku's soul has never been destroyed, either. Upon his death, he returns to the land of the dead.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#462

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:51 pm
‏Sorry about how my points are always randomly stated. =)

‏Goku has returned without Dragon Balls but it was always through the power of something or someone else and not with his own abilities. I said alread that outside interference aside from the one on one battle is prohibited by my obviously flawed and much hated rules. Goku is mortal just like anyone. Circumstance simply created an opening for him to return.

‏Don't compare Marvel writers to Akira Toriyama? Why, because they pale in comparison of the hailed writer of something more popular than green buff guys? Neat reasoning genious.

‏About flying...it kinda helps if you're virtually untouchable by way of speed and distance so flying and being the speed of light gives him an edge on the Hulk the size of a mountain. It's a reasonable argument and saying it's not without something to back it up is ignorance.

‏While Goku is going the speed of light, despite the laws of physics denying him this ability, he can do whatever he can normally do in Instant Transmission. Just watch his fight with Meta Cooler. Also, Goku in the show STATES in plain english that he moves at the speed of light with his Instant Transmission. Besides, even if I were to take that Wiki into account as the truth, since it even isn't sure, we could assume he is FASTER than the speed of light. If he is somewhere instantly then there is no time required for distance traveled. Meaning he can go anywhere and if he were to race light to a certain location, he'd beat it there since light has to travel while Goku just "appears". I still say he's the speed of light.

‏Sorry I never read the comic books on the Hulk, I am just using what experience on his ass I do have. Sorry, correct me or fill me in if you so choose, I look up as much info on these guys as I can. Just present your argument and I will do my best to counter.

‏"It seems to me that you seem to think Goku can survive the heat of the core of a star because there exist characters who have endured the heat of a star, and Goku can't be weaker than them so he MUST be able to survive the heat of a star."

‏Yep. DBZ is a simple universe where Power Levels and special abilities dictate power. For example, Frieza can surive in outer space, Piccolo can regenerate any missing body parts and those powers dictate what they can survive, that paired with Power Levels. So if Goku and Gohan are shot into the Sun and Gohan dies, it's only because he's weaker. Cooler has no special ability to be protected from the Sun so since he's weaker, Goku must survive.

‏I didn't know Gray Hulk existed. How can I argue about him, all I know about him is he's smarter than green Hulk. I'll check up on this guy and everyone else I don't know as soon as I can.

‏Ness, I think his strength is obviously great but his speed is to be determined since, he can travel quickly in the game with his running teleport but he doesn't ever battle with it's use unlike Goku. I think he'd lose due to speed and maybe physical stature would play a role.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‏Still just chippin' away at the arguments presented. Lobo will be included next for sure. =P
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#463

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:12 pm
‏With your dedication about Goku going the speed of light and ability to survive every weapon ever, and ****ing stars, I think Goku could be classified as a Godmode character if all of this is true. Because I'm sure even Kefka would die from an O or B class star.

‏And yes, I said it. The Marvel writers run circles around Akira Toriyama. All Akira Toriyama ever did was create Generic Action Series A. Marvel and DC writers can actually make you feel the characters. If a character dies, you're sad. With DBZ, if a character dies, "awwww" but you know they'll be back in five chapters. People thought Superman was dead for a YEAR before he returned. I don't follow comics as much these days, but I'm pretty sure that Captain America's still dead. Toriyama can't write one death without him/her coming back eventually. I don't think DBZ is that special anyway, people only love it just because it was one of the few animes America had before we got imported stuff every day. Let's say Naruto came out the time DBZ did and DBZ just came out recently. Would it be hailed as much as it is? Probably not. But this part is completely off-topic.

‏And talking to Loot, he told me that Goku admits nothing can survive the heat of the sun when he sends Baby to the sun, and that Cooler died, but was rebuilt, so he didn't just go "o lol teh sunz is week 4 me." And according to him, Broly and Omega Shenron are stronger. But I don't want to drag him in the debate.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#464

‏Post by Lurch1982 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:27 pm

‏ Col. Les Claypool wrote:
‏ If a character dies, you're sad. With DBZ, if a character dies, "awwww" but you know they'll be back in five chapters. People thought Superman was dead for a YEAR before he returned. I don't follow comics as much these days, but I'm pretty sure that Captain America's still dead.

‏To be fair, there was an old saying that "Nobody in Comics are really dead.*"

‏*Except Bucky, Jason Todd, Uncle Ben, and Gwen Stacy.

‏Yet all of them were brought back (though Stacy was a clone and Uncle Ben was from an alternate reality). Bucky is Winter Soldier, Jason Todd somehow was brought back and retconned. I mean, its really the same thing. AFAIK, Captain America is still dead. But I'll put down a symbolic bet with anyone that CA will be back before they release the movie in a few years.

‏I mean, come on. They killed Aunt May in the Civil War series, yet brought her back when they ruined Spiderman by dropping a Dr. Strange plotline into the series (Devil bargin to reboot Spiderman and bring back Harry Osborne).
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#465

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:35 pm
‏But still, with Akira Toriyama, he can't get through a single story without bringing back all the dead characters.

‏At least in comics, they can get through complete story arcs without having a character return.

‏Another example of comic writings telling a better story is personal problems. Comics show that it's not easy being a superhero. Tony Stark may have been a big hero who saved thousands of people, but he's also had complete stories dealing with his alcoholism. When a villain finds out your identity, they use that against you. They may kidnap your girlfriend or family member or even kill them. Name one instance something like that has happened in DBZ besides Raditz kidnapping Gohan at the beginning. There's not as much depth in Toriyama's characters.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#466

‏Post by Deepfake » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:01 pm
‏Too much BS, did not read.
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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#467

‏Post by Lurch1982 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:47 pm

‏ Serial Miller wrote:
‏ Too much BS, did not read.

‏You don't have to because Lobo wins.
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#468

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:46 pm
‏When I access a PC, Lobo's goin' down =D

‏Um, WTF? King Kai, Piccolo and lots of minute characters like Dabura died and never came back and characters like Buu and Nail may as well be dead.

‏Drama is overrated. DBZ is one of the greatest action animes ever. But it did have some drama in DBZ movies more often than the show but it did exist. Look at the legendary (IMO) episode where Krillin begs for help, pleading for his childhood friend, Goku, to save his life before being blown to chunky bits right before everyone's eyes...its there if you look.
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#469

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:19 pm
‏You can't compare Marvel and DBZ because one is a single-author's story versus a compendium of smaller stories told and re-told by a whole other compendium of authors. Marvel has its terrible and its great. This is also DBZ's downfall though, because its level of great or whatever is static - and is thus over or undershadowed depending on who's writing at the time. IE - Frank Miller's Daredevil run. In terms of characterisation and depth and plot and drama and script completely crushes Dragonball Z and everything in it, while a lesser take would not. Let us also remember that Dragonball was originally written for a younger audience, while Marvel aims at an adult audience and thus can explore more mature themes. Its a moot argument on either side.
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#470

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:25 pm
‏I'm just a guy who demands a lot of depth to his characters, seeing their backstories, I want to know why the hero fights crime, I want to know how the villain became who s/he is. Though this doesn't mean I need to see every minor character's past (looking at you Naruto.) DB is good for action, but it could be much better storywise.

‏But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#471

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:01 pm
‏Script? For the most part yes but at its peaks and certain movies, absolutely not. Well, honestly I know very little about Daredevil apart from his minute appearance in the Spidey toon. So he could be interesting but its not...my taste =P DBZ certainly has the action down.

‏And comics were originally aimed at children.

‏The character of Trunks, Goku, Gohan and to a lesser extent, the others are fleshed out well. Goku is a very detailed character at the very least, and he grows in every aspect in DB/Z.
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#472

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:05 pm
‏I do agree that Trunks is pretty fleshed out, since I saw the movie having to do with the future and the androids and what not. Maybe I'd agree more if I saw the other movies. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the money for them.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#473

‏Post by Lurch1982 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:24 pm
‏Comics haven't exactly been aimed at kids for about 20 years.
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#474

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:12 pm
‏Cartoons and comics were originally, when they were first made, aimed at adults. Maybe when you were born they were primarily made for children. Then again, you don't live in Japan, where there is easily more manga/comics for adults than there are for kids.
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#475

‏Post by Joker » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:24 pm

‏ Erdawn Il Deus wrote:
‏ You can't compare Marvel and DBZ because one is a single-author's story versus a compendium of smaller stories told and re-told by a whole other compendium of authors. Marvel has its terrible and its great. This is also DBZ's downfall though, because its level of great or whatever is static - and is thus over or undershadowed depending on who's writing at the time. IE - Frank Miller's Daredevil run. In terms of characterisation and depth and plot and drama and script completely crushes Dragonball Z and everything in it, while a lesser take would not. Let us also remember that Dragonball was originally written for a younger audience, while Marvel aims at an adult audience and thus can explore more mature themes. Its a moot argument on either side.

‏You sir are a road scholar and a hero !! Frank Millers run on DD made my DD collection all the more valuable. He now shares a special section in my storage unit inside the fire proof file cabinets.

‏Also I have yet to see Goku's Instant Transmission teleport him through time. Sure it can send him anywhere he wants but it still restricts him to the current timeline he exists in. A smart warrior with the abilites to bend time could simply either stop time and then kill him or simply teleport to the moment in time where he is concieved and destroy his planet instead. Phoneix when not inhabiting a human form can transcend the streams of time. Thus as the eternal spirit of reberith she could easily wipe Goku off the face of the earth by simply manipulating the time stream.

‏How is goku supposed to move or fight some one that can stop time and keep him stuck in repose. And when I say stop time, I don't mean Einstiens theory of moving faster than the speed of light so that everything around you seems to be frozen, but instead the actual act of stopping time from moving forward.
‏Image

‏How about a Magic Trick?? I'm going to make this pencil dissapear !
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#476

‏Post by Deku Tree » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:19 am
‏I'm a Civil Engineering major. That sort of makes me a road scholar.
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#477

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:32 am
‏...damn. Go sit in the corner and think about why you shouldn't have said that. XD
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#478

‏Post by Gumchum » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:56 am
‏Who added "serious business" on to the tags list? Seriously. Awesome.
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#479

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:19 am
‏That was me. =D
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#480

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:35 am
‏But Joker, without a host, isn't Phoenix indestructable and keeps hatching from eggs and what not?

‏Also, Goldo in DBZ could temporarily freeze time. Temporarily. Every power and ability, every defense must be beatable at some level, it needs a drawback. Goku's energy attacks can be absorbed in DBZ actually aiding his foes and while powerful, not unbeatable. It also takes a toll on him. This time manipulation better have a drawback. Even Instant Transmission only works if he can envision his destination.
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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‏Blake
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#481

‏Post by Blake » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:03 pm
‏GOKU CAN'T LOCK TOPICS! :p

‏Though, I think one thread is enough for just arguing about Goku instead of opening up another. Hopefully it's not locked. ;)
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#482

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:57 pm
‏Goku needs as many topics as he wants. =P
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#483

‏Post by LOOT » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:07 pm
‏You still have left out the Omega Shenron point. He was the last bad guy in the Dragon Ball GT series (And essentially entire Dragon Ball saga) and had to be weakened by SSJ4 Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta before being wiped out with a Spirit Bomb. Was Goku able to do so on his own? OH NO.

‏End topic.
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#484

‏Post by Apiary Tazy » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:09 pm
‏lawl

‏Quick, it's the 25th page! Declare Goku the winner and that we must worship him!
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#485

‏Post by X-3 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:33 pm
‏25 pages? That's...impressive?

‏Magikarp could beat Goku. There was this episode with a kickass one.
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#486

‏Post by Minukelsus » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:49 pm

‏I'm just sayin' :rolleyes:

‏Trust me, I'm more than capable of downing Goku!!!
‏Image

‏Image
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#487

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:55 am
‏Sure, at that point in GT he was weaker than OS.

‏But, at the end of GT, Goku has already grown up again from being an SSj3(4?) child. Imagine what strength he must have now as an adult the second time! He was a (comparitively) weak child and grew into an SSj4 adult naturally. He must be much more powerful now. Of course that's not technically provable so I guess..OS does win..hrm..I can't believe I forgot him..

‏Haha, maybe I should make a "Who can beat Omega Shenron" topic!

‏I'll reply more w/ a PC later
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#488

‏Post by Deku Tree » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:16 pm
‏Bugs Bunny would own Goku.
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#489

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:22 pm

‏ Deku Trii wrote:
‏ Bugs Bunny would own Goku.

‏Maybe if he fused with daffy. On the note of Bugs and totally unrelated, I remember a badass Bugs Bunny game for the NES...I loved it. Yeah. Random.
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#490

‏Post by Deku Tree » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:26 pm
‏He would totally have Goku convinced it was Goku season.
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#491

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:31 pm
‏They might just play some B-Ball with Micheal Jordan to decide the victor...
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#492

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:35 pm

‏ Deku Trii wrote:
‏ He would totally have Goku convinced it was Goku season.

‏I love you. :lol: :lol: :lol: :(
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
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#493

‏Post by Calamity Panfan » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:39 pm
‏Topic over, Deku wins.
‏and that's the waaaaaaaaaay the news goes
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#494

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:43 pm
‏After Bugs had Elmer convinced that it was Goku season said hunter would waste all his amo on goku thus providing a distraction that would allow Bugs to pull out the big guns and win the fight! Ya see that's how Bugs works he's a trickster and thus has powers that most people can't understand muchless beat.

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
‏\"Knowlegde without wisdome is a ticking timebomb.\" Myself
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#495

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:55 pm
‏Aha, but Bugs and Elmer can't fly!!!
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#496

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:30 pm
‏Who all has won so far,
‏Let's see, kefka, gray hulk hasn't been eliminated yet.Superman,
‏OS,and bugs bunny.

‏^Bugs bunny doesn't need to fly cause he has anvils to drop on Goku.

‏Deku wins.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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#497

‏Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:08 pm
‏We haven't settled Super Man yet? God, I am lagging. When I get ahold of a PC (tomorrow probably) I'll shatter a few more guys, especially this Lobo people have mentioned...

‏OS and (grr) Kefka have won...but Supes and Gray Hulk need further evaluation.
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#498

‏Post by PK FIRE! » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:14 pm
‏What was that about Kefka? I couldn't hear you speak up!

‏- You stupid dog!
‏Quotes to live by.

‏\"A man\'s fate is a man\'s fate and life is but an illusion\" Shogun
‏\"I think therfore I am dangerus.\" Unknown
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#499

‏Post by Minukelsus » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:19 pm
‏What about Captain Scarlet? Surely he's man enough to kick seven days a crap out of Goku, he is "indestructible" afterall!!!

‏Hell why not throw He-Man in as well shall we. :rolleyes:

‏Jesus I feel so-so geeky right now.
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#500

‏Post by Bad Dragonite » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:45 pm

‏ Goku has returned without Dragon Balls but it was always through the power of something or someone else and not with his own abilities. I said alread that outside interference aside from the one on one battle is prohibited by my obviously flawed and much hated rules. Goku is mortal just like anyone. Circumstance simply created an opening for him to return.

‏Then most of the characters that you've tried to eliminate should be reinstated due to the fact that most characters are given their powers from an outside source.
‏-I'm Vgfian
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‏Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

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#501

‏Post by Erdawn Il Deus » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:42 pm
‏Haven't settle Luke Skywalker yet either. Or any Hulk, actually.
‏\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"
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#502

‏Post by heh » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:06 pm
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#503

‏Post by Blake » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:40 pm
‏Oh come on, Superman would win. Superman was the prime (at least the first prime) argument of this topic. Lots of people provided valid arguments about superman. I think at one point you criticized his laser eyes. If I recall, Goku could not withstand Piccolo's ki attack when he was fighting Raditz. Sure Goku may be stronger now, but when something tears a gaping hold in your stomach, I don't care if you can reach super constipation level 4 or not. You ain't gonna live. :p Same goes for Superman: I'm sure his lasers can cut through flesh quite easily.
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#504

‏Post by 1-up Salesman » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:26 pm
‏Okay, I think we've gotten it settled that even though many characters could beat Goku in battles, some battles with that person Goku could improve on and win. Now, let us end this argument with someone posting an awesome Youtube Video of Goku awesomely someone.
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#505

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:40 am
‏K, Topics over people, 26 pages, if you wanna continue this arguement (God forbid) make a new topic.
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
‏GET BETTER - dan le sac Vs Scroobius Pip
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#506

‏Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:12 am
‏No, I'm pretty sure we've got enough people who can beat Goku. Image
‏Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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#507

‏Post by Swordmaster Link » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:27 am
‏Unnecessary post-lock s-mod post

‏But where am I going to go for my daily laughs? :(
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#508

‏Post by spooky scary bearatons » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:47 am
‏*inside masa's mind leak*

‏^ You and me both, brother.
‏"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
‏GET BETTER - dan le sac Vs Scroobius Pip
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#509

‏Post by Deepfake » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:59 am
‏[video]p7CaeQTqODI[/video]
‏I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying
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